[Citizen Referral] Ishan [FURTHER ACTION]

[Diamat]

Justice is supposed to be blind, but I'm starting to doubt whether you are blind in your application of it, as per my comments and your quote above. As I told a member of the triumvirate when asked, until you show you aren't objective I will believe you are, you are starting to show your lack of objectivity.

I personally find your line of conversation insulting. And I had reason for bringing up the bill issue again. You are right, this isn't "any other bill." This is the most major bill we had in recent years, which is inextricably linked to this case. Plus, I didn't say that this issue should be discussed here, I only said that it should be discussed at one point.

You can't possibly judge my objectivity based on such a comment. It's completely unfair. Plus, I have always held this stance. This isn't anything new; see this case:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?590249

Edit: It's also not right of you to cherry-pick quotes of mine while ignoring others, such as these:

I agree that it would be quite tedious to unwind everything, especially for Hex and myself. None of this is ideal...A revote could also be a huge mess. It's especially because this bill is such a major bill that any path we take will be seen as extreme.

Like Ishan, I don't care a bit about whatever his personal attitude toward other members might be. I'm not interested at all in whatever he might have said about other members offsite. All that matters here is the vote manipulation and the abuse of power. That is all I will base my evaluation on.

I respect his admission of guilt.

Talk about objectivity.

[Aikanár]

Before you decide what to do with him, I'd like to point out a few things. My perspective probably changed when I became speaker in 2008 and got Hex access, and saw just how much work needed to be done to get the site working well again, and I was no longer just working for moderation, or the Curia, or any one area, but had to take everything into account to get a reasonably workable result.

Point A: Ishan isn't likely to be allowed back into any of the staff branches any time soon.
Point B: Ishan is a workaholic, to put it mildly.
Point C: Moderation are fretting about the small recruitment pool they have, given the requirement that all candidates should be citizens. NB. This is technically breaking SND, but this view isn't attached to any names, and can be seen as Hex letting the curial officers know about policy discussion.
Point D: Most of the administration are unimpressed by the (in)effectiveness of how the Curia implements its projects, resulting in Hex being loathe to let the general citizenry do any substantial work outside staff control. This isn't breaking SND, as it's pretty much public.

Given the above, if I were you, I wouldn't be too permanent with any action, and deprive yourself of what could be quite an asset. Given points A and B, you'd probably have a decent chance of getting him to work on curial projects, such as last year's members awards. If you can make use of him, then point D is moot (or at least less relevant). And in point C, there is an opening which, I'll just let you know, staff are undecided on how to go about things.

Would you please reveal the tool you're using to read other peoples mind before they start posting?!

I echo panns statement but I've several other things I'm considering more than what pann said.

What Ishan did is definitely unbecoming of a citizen, no question about that. But when contemplating what he did and taking his defense into consideration, what is what I'm constitutionally required to do, I have to recognise several things.

Ishan acted not for himself, not out of a motive for personal benefit, even though the subject was so dear to his heart, that he lost judgement, he had nothing to gain from this personally. He acted because he thought he would act for the better of the Curia and for the benefit of TWC.

Don't get me wrong here, I don't say that the end justify the means and I'm far from condoning actions that solely "mean well" - you know how the saying goes. But I do think that there's a distinction to be made between acting out of malicious intent and acting with the best of intentions.

The latter is obviously the case here, Ishan acted that way because he thought that this bill would be for the better of the Curia and for the benefit of TWC and through to emotional affections to other valued citizens, who linked their citizenship to this bill, Ishan was even more under his own emotional pressure.

So while I find his action despicable, I recognise his motive not as being malicious but as being a mirror of what Ishan was doing for the last years: doing the best in his abilities for the better of TWC.

In addition, his defense shows that he is by now full aware of what he did and he shows remorse! He does not only feel sorry for his deeds, but is also apologising for actions which have no impact on this referral. This shows his true character, far better than his misdoing.

Ishan displayed a terrible laps of judgement, yes. He broke the constitution, yes. He tainted the outcome of a vote to a revolutionary bill and thus possibly achieved the contrary of what he wanted to achieve. We, the Curia, not the Triumvirate, will still have to deal with the implications of his actions to said bill.

Let's be perfectly clear here, if it was not for his defense, I'd be for removal of rank straight away. But Ishan showed us his heart in his defense. He denied nothing, he explained his actions and he truly regrets.

I cannot deny these facts. Therefore I'm not voting for removal of rank but think that a suspension of one or two months is appropriate in this case.

Again, don't get me wrong, if this case was anything like Antwerpen's, I would be all out for the ultimate capital punishment, but it is definitely not like that!

[Aikanár]

In addition, citizen behaviour does not begin or end with the actions one is referred for to the Triumvirate. Of course, that's what we're here to treat with, but his behaviour in his defense must be considered too.

If you misbehave and regret and ask for apology, it usually is been given along with an admonishment. That's how apologising for misbehaviour works. Since Ishan apperantly shows honest remorse, I see no reason why we should shut him out of the Curia.

People make mistakes. Those mistakes are dealt with. If people regret their mistakes, they may learn from them and don't reiterate them.

[Aikanár]

Leo, what do you make of all this. How is your assessment of the case and the admonishment we should be dealing out?

[imb39]

I am a bit confused - the discussion in this thread should, surely, be about whether to dismiss the charge or take it further. Any discussion about what happens next should come next - or am I being thick?

[Aikanár]

No, you're technically right. I guess we're just using the time given to us -especially since we stared discussing the later things until after all of us did cast their vote for further action- since this case is a bit more discussion-heavy than the cases we regularly see.

[imb39]

It seems to me that a consensus was arrived at pretty quickly over further action. Use some common sense and go onto the next step. Why drag out a process and then lose track of the discussion when a new thread is started. You have, in essence, started this process without the formality of starting a new thread.