[Release] Sebidee's Epirus Roster Expansion

[Sebidee]

Cool, got yourself a sub (come to think of it, I commented on your thread about this on the official forums hehe). Any way why is it in battle map modifications?

Lol, I am never on that forum anymore.

So does the non-steam link include fixed peltast stats?

Depends what you mean by fixed! This non-steam link gives the Royal Peltasts vanilla stats. It is also the official one

http://www.sendspace.com/file/x4rwwt


OP UPDATED WITH NON-STEAM LINK.

[14182]

Great, but the non-steam links in OP are the same. Was it supposed to be another link for the pics or that's just a sarcasm?

[Sebidee]

Great, but the non-steam links in OP are the same. Was it supposed to be another link for the pics or that's just a sarcasm?

Oops, no I intended to provide the picture as well. It's fixed now, thanks for pointing that out!

[Trafi]

I really like it, but I cant get it to work. Ive put it into the Data-Folder and activated it with the Modmanager. When I start the game, i'll get an infinite loading-screen. Any help?E: I'm using non-Steam Version of your Mod.

[Sebidee]

I really like it, but I cant get it to work. Ive put it into the Data-Folder and activated it with the Modmanager. When I start the game, i'll get an infinite loading-screen. Any help?E: I'm using non-Steam Version of your Mod.

Well the steam version works fine and it is that's the exact same file as the non-steam download. Check to see if you have any other mods which might cause the problem.

[Trafi]

... Check to see if you have any other mods which might cause the problem.

I tried it without mods except yours, its still the same problem.Does the mod need a specific gameversion?

[Sebidee]

I tried it without mods except yours, its still the same problem.Does the mod need a specific gameversion?

It works for the current patch, which is live. Here, I will update the steam link and try reinstalling it.

Edit: Here you go: http://www.sendspace.com/file/0e4vyr

Now this file 100% completely and totally works. If you still can't launch then the problem must be on your side.

[Trafi]

Thanks for uploading again. Ive tried it again with the new version, but I'm still getting the same infinite loading screen. But thanks for your help!

[Lugotorix]

Bravo! I've wanted these units for a long while. Here's some rep! I am one happy camper. BTW are these all existing units other than the Molossian Agema etc. For example the Illyrian additions....

[Sebidee]

Bravo! I've wanted these units for a long while. Here's some rep! I am one happy camper. BTW are these all existing units other than the Molossian Agema etc. For example the Illyrian additions....

No, no, no, no, NO! they are all my creations! Some of them may function similarly to vanilla units but they all differ in stats and looks. For example, the Chaonian agema is based on Shieldbeares but of course have a look which is distinctly Epirote (sort of Illyrian-ish, but Greek and based off of any pictures I could find of them and Pyrrhus of Epirus).

I will take this opportunity to point that they are based on historical sources. Go to my WiP page to learn more!

[neoptolemos]

No, no, no, no, NO! they are all my creations! Some of them may function similarly to vanilla units but they all differ in stats and looks. For example, the Chaonian agema is based on Shieldbeares but of course have a look which is distinctly Epirote (sort of Illyrian-ish, but Greek and based off of any pictures I could find of them and Pyrrhus of Epirus).

I will take this opportunity to point that they are based on historical sources. Go to my WiP page to learn more!

What do you mean "They look distinctly Epirote (sort of Illyrian-ish)" and then claim you have portrayed them historically accurate?
Epirotes were not "distinct" from other surrounding Greeks in many aspects actually.They were "distinct" from the Illyrians however.

[Sebidee]

What do you mean "They look distinctly Epirote (sort of Illyrian-ish)" and then claim you have portrayed them historically accurate?
Epirotes were not "distinct" from other surrounding Greeks in many aspects actually.They were "distinct" from the Illyrians however.

Epirotes were different from other Greeks. They did not live in city states but rather a more rural setting. They were allied to and influenced by the Illyrians as well as by Macedon and Italy. If anything they were far, far closer to Macedon and the successors than the Greeks in almost every way. So no Neoptolemos, they were distinct and they are accurate.

Edit: Epirus was also described as the backwater of Greece. So according to those in the south, such as the Athenians and Sparta, Epirus would have been hick town and would have been considered lesser, most likely because of their association with Illyrian and Thracian Barbarians which few states in the south would have had. Pyrrhus himself was raised in Illryia as an exile, served in the army of Macedon and spent many years as a diplomatic hostage in Egypt. This is an example of the kind of multiculturalism which would have been present in Epirus, a land that is at the crossroads of the East, West and North.

[neoptolemos]

Epirotes were different from other Greeks. They did not live in city states but rather a more rural setting. They were allied to and influenced by the Illyrians as well as by Macedon and Italy. If anything they were far, far closer to Macedon and the successors than the Greeks in almost every way. So no Neoptolemos, they were distinct and they are accurate.

Edit: Epirus was also described as the backwater of Greece. So according to those in the south, such as the Athenians and Sparta, Epirus would have been hick town and would have been considered lesser, most likely because of their association with Illyrian and Thracian Barbarians which few states in the south would have had. Pyrrhus himself was raised in Illryia as an exile, served in the army of Macedon and spent many years as a diplomatic hostage in Egypt. This is an example of the kind of multiculturalism which would have been present in Epirus, a land that is at the crossroads of the East, West and North.

Hmm , I have a good grasp of the Hellenistic background of the era and the area (I am a researcher for a number of mods) but what you have posted does not answer my question and furthermore it is a very sketchy "general" view of the Epirus faction for a Total war game, nothing more.
The fact that some Epirots were bordering Illyrians (Chaonians) does not equal with "Illyriash" influences being present in a different manner as it would have been for the Macedonians who were also bordering Illyrians , Thracians and other barbarians.
Moreover a certain number of Illyrian tribes bordering the Epirotes were under a significant degree of hellenization themselves (a practical example being even the Illyrian helmet which is just an outdated Southern Greek helmet ) creating an even more unclear "Illyrian" vs "Greek" contrast or distinctiveness in culture with the exception of language perhaps and least the material culture
which is the important aspect for a visualization of that into a 3d model.

In order for you to claim that Epirots "were under Illyrian and Italian" influence you should quote the conclusions of historians or archaelogists whose findings indicate something as such because I haven't come across that in my research.
On the contrary Pyrrhus efforts to boost the "Greekness" in a similar fashion with what Philipp did in Macedon, indicates a certain degree of cultural chauvinism.

I am afraid you have misunderstood the extensive use of allied troops and mercenaries Pyrrhus did with the influences these had for his army.

Epirotan army was a typical hellenistic army with a core of Greek troops which they wouldn't differ for any other Greek counterpart.The archaeological finds of weapons and armours from the area are sufficient, at the moment, for us to say that.

[Sebidee]

Hmm , I have a good grasp of the Hellenistic background of the era and the area (I am a researcher for a number of mods) but what you have posted does not answer my question and furthermore it is a very sketchy "general" view of the Epirus faction for a Total war game, nothing more.
The fact that some Epirots were bordering Illyrians (Chaonians) does not equal with "Illyriash" influences being present in a different manner as it would have been for the Macedonians who were also bordering Illyrians , Thracians and other barbarians.
Moreover a certain number of Illyrian tribes bordering the Epirotes were under a significant degree of hellenization themselves (a practical example being even the Illyrian helmet which is just an outdated Southern Greek helmet ) creating an even more unclear "Illyrian" vs "Greek" contrast or distinctiveness in culture with the exception of language perhaps and least the material culture
which is the important aspect for a visualization of that into a 3d model.

In order for you to claim that Epirots "were under Illyrian and Italian" influence you should quote the conclusions of historians or archaelogists whose findings indicate something as such because I haven't come across that in my research.
On the contrary Pyrrhus efforts to boost the "Greekness" in a similar fashion with what Philipp did in Macedon, indicates a certain degree of cultural chauvinism.

I am afraid you have misunderstood the extensive use of allied troops and mercenaries Pyrrhus did with the influences these had for his army.

Epirotan army was a typical hellenistic army with a core of Greek troops which they wouldn't differ for any other Greek counterpart.The archaeological finds of weapons and armours from the area are sufficient, at the moment, for us to say that.

I do have sources. I research mods, there is no reason to think that yours is any better. I have neither the time nor the interest in getting into lengthy discussion. My point is that the rural Epirotes were different to the urban Greeks of the south, that's self evident. And besides, there are different versions of history depending on the source, I chose this. I didn't misunderstand anything, I'm not an idiot.

Naturally following the sources which differentiates Epirotes from Athenians and the like is smart for a mod. Uniformity would not make good gameplay.

If you have an issue then avoid the mod and work on yours.

[neoptolemos]

I do have sources.

Please do enlighten us with them, it will be interesting

I research mods, there is no reason to think that yours is any better.

The historical background of your work has nothing to do with that nor I am claiming something like that at all.You ve claimed something and I asked your sources simple as that.

I have neither the time nor the interest in getting into lengthy discussion. My point is that the rural Epirotes were different to the urban Greeks of the south, that's self evident. And besides, there are different versions of history depending on the source, I chose this. I didn't misunderstand anything, I'm not an idiot.

I believe your tone is inappropriate. I was simply asking for your sources for a project you have said "it is open to suggestions"and specifically concerning as you ve said and i i quote "the Chaonian agema is based on Shieldbeares but of course have a look which is distinctly Epirote (sort of Illyrian-ish, but Greek......"

This mod makes Epirus into a multicultural and diverse faction as I believe it was meant to be.




FOR MORE INFORMATION, HISTORICAL REFERENCES AND TO FIND NON STEAM LINKS FOR MY MODS PLEASE VISIT:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...3#post13807453

This mod is a living file and will be changed and updated as necessary. Suggestions are welcome.

the Chaonian agema is based on Shieldbeares but of course have a look which is distinctly Epirote (sort of Illyrian-ish, but Greek and based off of any pictures I could find of them and Pyrrhus of Epirus).

I will take this opportunity to point that they are based on historical sources. Go to my WiP page to learn more!

Naturally following the sources which differentiates Epirotes from Athenians and the like is smart for a mod. Uniformity would not make good gameplay.

That's another issue on which I won't disagree, you're free to choose whatever you like for your work I am not judging that but claiming is "accurate" and "based on sources" is another

If you have an issue then avoid the mod and work on yours.

I can see you are not really tolerant to criticism and suggestions

Anyway it is your choice not to answer my question and provide your sources, I respect that and I apologize if you think that my historical criticism was out of place.

[Sebidee]

Ok, I'm sorry! I shouldn't have been so hostile. I was in a bad mood earlier and besides, I'm used to the official forums where people rip out each others throats for fun. My tone was a little off but I had thought from your first post that you were simply attacking the mod, which others have done on my previous ones and for seemingly no reason. I AM OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS AND CRITICISM I was just caught off guard, funnily enough after a of a university exam.

I get the impression that you have more of an issue with the statement I made to the other commenter and not the actual mod. Here is my quote:

For example, the Chaonian agema is based on Shieldbeares but of course have a look which is distinctly Epirote (sort of Illyrian-ish, but Greek and based off of any pictures I could find of them and Pyrrhus of Epirus).

I can see how you could have misinterpreted that. You thought that I was saying that ALL Epirote units were a mix of Greek, Macedonian, Illyrian and Italian. That is certainly not true. Lets forget that statement, which was made off the cuff from my iPod while walking down the street. Instead we can go into the mod step by step.

First, the Italians and Italian influence:
When I said Italian influence I had in fact meant the one Epirote unit that is sort of Italian and the four which are straight up Italian with no Epirote blood. The Italian influenced unit is the Epirote Manipular infantry. Here is a picture, they have different armour in the mod but this is the only picture I had at hand:



During his wars in Italy Pyrrhus fought with the Samnites and against the Romans. Both used the Manipular formation. Pyrrhus's phalanx did prove effective against Rome but was not perfect, possibly explaining his high casualties. He adopted a manipular system to support the cumbersome phalanx. This is mentioned in this video postcast here and is supported historically. It also makes sense as Rome's later enemies (Pontus, Carthage, The Seleucids, Greece) also did similar things. Pyrrhus's adaptation was only slight which is why I gave them only one mid tier Roman style unit. Carthage will probably receive more.

The Italians are pretty much exactly as they would appear in Italy. I gave Epirus Campanians, Samnites and Lucanians as well as a generic Italian unit. The rationale is that some Italians would have served with him rather than stay at home. They should, however work out to only be a small part of the player's early game as they are nowhere near as strong as the Epirote units.

Next the Illyrian units:
This is pretty much the same situation as the Italians. There are two "influenced" units and three straight up Illyrians. The Illyrians are accurate with their greaves, helmets, chest disks and axes and sicas (though I just used a kopis since they are similar and there is no sica in vanilla). Epirus was of course bordered by Illyria and was allied through Pyrrhus, the coastal levies that appear in vanilla are evidence that Illyrian troops were used, do I really need sources for that?



You were correct in saying that only a small part of Epirus actually bordered Illyria, yet that is where my influenced units came from. The Chaonians bordered Illyria and was frequently the victim of raids. Near constant border skirmishes are a given. Though I did claim that they were influenced the influence is only slight. They wear a cloak (thracian in game, but can be considered Illyrian) and wear Boetian helmets. Boetians were used more commonly by cavalry but infantry did wear them, the only real reason I gave them to the Chaonians was to make them visually different to Shield beares and hoplites.



I had initially intended to simply copy and paste Shield Bearers and Foot Companions to the Epirus roster. But my research uncovered that the Chaonians were a royal guard of Epirus that served both as pikemen and out of the Phalanx as well. I took the opportunity then to make unique elite units which I hope you will agree is better than if I had simply given Shield Bearers and Foot Companions.

Macedon and Greece:
The things I said about Macedon and Greece I believe are correct. Epirus's armies were closely modelled on that of Macedon. The fact that they were considered a backwater and looked down upon by the Greek cities is true. The were different, if only slightly. I may have chosen to exaggerate that difference every so slightly but that is not an inaccuracy but rather an emphasis. That error was in favour of game play, I will not sacrifice game play in favour of historical accuracy.

It is also worth noting that the majority of troops in the Epirote faction even with the mod are Greek or Macedonian. Here is the full break down:

Units mod/vanilla

Italian influenced: 1
Pure Italian: 4
Illyrian/Greek: 2
Pure Illyrian: 3/1
Macedonian style: 5/8
Greek: 3/9

So, what I have done with the mod is make Epirus slightly more multicultural while maintaining the Greek and Macedonian dominance, also now favouring Macedon over the Greeks. That is perfectly accurate.

The sources to support this stuff is in my WiP thread, I'll copy and paste here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus...ggle_with_Rome
http://www.balkanhistory.com/epirus1.htm
http://home.zonnet.nl/richardevers2000/pictures10.htm
http://www.ancient-battles.com/catw/epirus.htm
http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_epeiros_units.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u85-gPYSBu8

PS, I take back what I said about avoiding the mod. You should try it, you seem to be interested in Epirus and it is, at the end of the day, a good mod. I just hope I don't have to write an essay like this for every mod I do.