Replacing the Chivalry/Dread system - for dIRECTOR's Cut - Beta released!

[Maegfaer]

Beta download can be found in this post: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13836068


Original post:
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I'm making a submod (for MOS) that replaces the current Chivalry/Dread system, since it feels out of place to me and often annoys me. I could argue at length why, but if you're a TATW veteran you'll probably know what I'm talking about. If you disagree, you can simply ignore this thread and submod.

My idea is to ditch Chivalry (or Respect) entirely and to rename Dread and add extra effects to it. Chivalry's effects are superfluous because:

• Command stars and TroopMorale bonuses can also increase your army's Morale.
• The Population Growth bonus has been reduced in TATW to the point it barely matters, plus there are other stats that do the same like Squalor reduction.
• There are a multitude of stats that increase Public Order, including Dread.

In contrast, Dread's effect of lowering the enemy's morale isn't available through any other effect, yet it is one of the most useful effects a General can have. I want to capitalize on that by changing Dread into a representation of the General's (battle) reputation. I'm currently using the name "Renown", but if that feels really out of place for the Evil factions, let me know. English isn't my native language.

A General can get Renown by:

• Bravery in battle (personally killing many foes)
• Winning Heroic victories
• Status/position/rank (in MOS there are many Ancillaries for this!)
• Bloodline
• Retinue/items (Anduril is a blade of great Renown wouldn't you say?)

Note that exterminating/occupying and executing/releasing won't affect Renown. This means you can make the tactical or immersive choice without penalty.

It may be desirable for Renown to also provide a Morale bonus to your own troops. If so, this can be added as well. I can make Triggers that look at the current Renown level of every general at the start of every turn, and apply a hidden Trait that provides the correct additional effects based on the Renown level. This does mean that there is a "delay" of one turn before such additional effects are applied, but I consider that a trivial issue.

[geppetto]

Actually it is a good idea but i do not know how will you change that system. Also i did not like the "renown" title. Needs a fancy name.

[Jmonstra]

I think renown sounds find. Evil generals can be renowned amongst their supporters, while being infamous for the same reasons among the Good camp. WHat were you planning on renaming Dread to? Infamy perhaps?

[tombombadil]

Love the idea, name could probably do with some work but concept is great. Will hep with immersion too. Have you thought about altering obedience too? Never really liked that system.

EDIT: Jmonstra I got the impression he was going to make it a system like command with no 'opposite/negative' system. So there would be only renoun.
Also thinking about it renown could actually work. Prestige is another option but I think what you already have is better

EDIT2: Will this be linked to command? Only it would look strange to see a 8 star general with low renown or similarly a 2/3 star general with high renown. But then you need to be careful not to make it a replica of the generals command. Will be interesting to see how you meet a balance here

[Maegfaer]

I think renown sounds find. Evil generals can be renowned amongst their supporters, while being infamous for the same reasons among the Good camp. WHat were you planning on renaming Dread to? Infamy perhaps?

Dread will become Renown, Chivalry will be gone. There simply won't be any traits/ancillaries that provide Chivalry bonuses.

Have you thought about altering obedience too? Never really liked that system.

Yes, I'm considering replacing it with a Management stat, affecting a combination of Public Order/Trade/Taxes/Construction costs/Health/Squalor. Something like that. Haven't worked out details yet.

EDIT2: Will this be linked to command? Only it would look strange to see a 8 star general with low renown or similarly a 2/3 star general with high renown. But then you need to be careful not to make it a replica of the generals command. Will be interesting to see how you meet a balance here

I want Command to represent actual tactical ability and Renown to represent reputation. There will be some overlap, but consider this is actually worse in the current system. Chivalry and Command both provide Morale bonuses to your own troops. Renown lowers the Morale of the enemy, something Command does not.

[Greymane]

This sounds completely awesome!
But I didn't even know that it was possible to change traits in that way. Isn't that stuff hardcoded? Oh well, what do I know...?
(And if I come up with a better name than 'renown' I'll let you guys know.)
Also, is this going to be compatible with dIRECTOR's Cut, MIKE GOLF and Jox' RK submod, neither, both, something, anything?
Because most MOS users will probably use DC and dIRECTOR hopes that his unofficial 1.6.3. patch (aka: DC) will be integrated into a (hypothetical, Stylix has been gone for quite some time now) new version of MOS. Something to think about, I guess.

EDIT: Also, I'd recommend you change the titel of this thread to something with MOS in it

[sacred9]

This sounds completely awesome!
But I didn't even know that it was possible to change traits in that way. Isn't that stuff hardcoded?

think so yes. This will take some weeks. Overwrite many scripts and you have to do many changes i guess.

Maybe its a good idea, mabye not, but you have to code/scripting many things. In my opinion i will work with the old system, i will work a bit on traits and ancillaries next time for 3.2 vanilla and 4.5 alternative patch.

Somethings like brego for theodred and some more.


here is a thread about Dread Chivalry:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ad-vs-Chivalry

so the old system is not that bad, but a nice idea is it and a lot to figure out.

greets

[Maegfaer]

This sounds completely awesome!
But I didn't even know that it was possible to change traits in that way. Isn't that stuff hardcoded? Oh well, what do I know...?

It is possible. The names of those attributes (Chivalry/Dread) can be changed in the shared.txt file. Their icons can be changed in one of the interface TGA files of every faction. The description of the respective levels in tooltips.txt. By what traits/ancillaries and under which conditions those are applied can be changed in export_descr_character_traits.txt and export_descr_ancillaries.txt. As for extra effects like a Morale bonus to your own troops, it would need Trait triggers like this:

Trigger renown_reset
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
Affect RenownEffects -10 chance 100

Trigger renown_effects1
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
and Attribute Chivalry == -1
Affect RenownEffects 1 chance 100

Trigger renown_effects2
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
and Attribute Chivalry == -2
Affect RenownEffects 2 chance 100
 
;etc, up to renown_effects10

Accompanied with a Trait like this:

Trait RenownEffects
Characters all
hidden

Level Renown1
Description Renown1_descr
EffectsDescription Renown1_effects_descr
Threshold 1
Effect TroopMorale 1

Level Renown2
Description Renown2_descr
EffectsDescription Renown2_effects_descr
Threshold 2
Effect TroopMorale 2

;etc, up to Renown10

Using this technique you can add any Trait effect as additional effects to any of the Command/Chivalry/Dread/Loyalty/Obedience attributes. This way I also plan to change Obedience into a Management attribute for Governors.

Also, is this going to be compatible with dIRECTOR's Cut, MIKE GOLF and Jox' RK submod, neither, both, something, anything?
Because most MOS users will probably use DC and dIRECTOR hopes that his unofficial 1.6.3. patch (aka: DC) will be integrated into a (hypothetical, Stylix has been gone for quite some time now) new version of MOS. Something to think about, I guess.

It'll be made for dIRECTOR's Cut, I'm already used to thinking about it as MOS 1.6.3.

[Greymane]

It is possible. The names of those attributes (Chivalry/Dread) can be changed in the shared.txt file. Their icons can be changed in one of the interface TGA files of every faction. The description of the respective levels in tooltips.txt. By what traits/ancillaries and under which conditions those are applied can be changed in export_descr_character_traits.txt and export_descr_ancillaries.txt. As for extra effects like a Morale bonus to your own troops, it would need Trait triggers like this:

It'll be made for dIRECTOR's Cut, I'm already used to thinking about it as MOS 1.6.3.

+rep

[sacred9]

It is possible. The names of those attributes (Chivalry/Dread) can be changed in the shared.txt file. Their icons can be changed in one of the interface TGA files of every faction. The description of the respective levels in tooltips.txt. By what traits/ancillaries and under which conditions those are applied can be changed in export_descr_character_traits.txt and export_descr_ancillaries.txt. As for extra effects like a Morale bonus to your own troops, it would need Trait triggers like this:

Trigger renown_reset
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
Affect RenownEffects -10 chance 100

Trigger renown_effects1
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
and Attribute Chivalry == -1
Affect RenownEffects 1 chance 100

Trigger renown_effects2
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
and Attribute Chivalry == -2
Affect RenownEffects 2 chance 100
 
;etc, up to renown_effects10

Accompanied with a Trait like this:

Trait RenownEffects
Characters all
hidden

Level Renown1
Description Renown1_descr
EffectsDescription Renown1_effects_descr
Threshold 1
Effect TroopMorale 1

Level Renown2
Description Renown2_descr
EffectsDescription Renown2_effects_descr
Threshold 2
Effect TroopMorale 2

;etc, up to Renown10

Using this technique you can add any Trait effect as additional effects to any of the Command/Chivalry/Dread/Loyalty/Obedience attributes. This way I also plan to change Obedience into a Management attribute for Governors.



It'll be made for dIRECTOR's Cut, I'm already used to thinking about it as MOS 1.6.3.

if it works and you have the time to overwrite it

[Withwnar]

Nice idea and reasoning behind it.

Another place where chivalry/dread comes into things is the prebattle speeches: different speeches depending on whether they have chivalry or dread. I can't remember which file it is in - one of the sound ones I expect - nor whether TATW makes use of it anyway. It might be worth checking.

[Ngugi]

More modders, new mods, ftw by default
+ rep

[Maegfaer]

Thanks for the positive replies all!

I just finished the descriptions of the Renown levels, these are displayed when you mouse-over the Renown bar of a General.

{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_0}Practically no one has heard of him
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_1}Has only just started making a name for himself
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_2}Is well known in the local area
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_3}His name has spread to neighbouring lands
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_4}Only strangers from distant lands don't know who he is
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_5}Even in more distant lands rumours about him have spread
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_6}Many tales about him are known in both friendly and hostile lands alike
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_7}It's a great challenge to find anyone at all who has not heard of him
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_8}Very few are more renowned
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_9}His renown is such that all in Middle Earth have heard of him
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_10}A legend even among the most renowned

Suggestions and corrections are welcome.

[Nariac]

You could call it "Prowess" if you don't like "Renown".

[Jmonstra]

You could call it "Prowess" if you don't like "Renown".

I feel like some of the modifers for this stat wouldnt really make sense with "Prowess". Prowess is related to your abilities/competence which cant really be directly derived from , for example, your geneology ( Intelligent, competent leaders have had useless siblings/family member/ progeny all throughout history). I think Renown is a good name for what the stat modifies/is increased by.

[tombombadil]

Descriptions are great, only I feel you become too 'renowned' at too low a level. I started making a couple changes to yours and got a bit carried away and completely re-wrote some of them. Don't get me wrong, I think yours are great but these would be my choice of descriptions. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion on this however.

{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_0}Few would recognise his name
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_1}His journey to renown is but beginning
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_2}A name many of his allies would be gladdened to hear
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_3}A local hero, loved and admired by his people
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_4}A figure of renown, both abroad and at home
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_5}Only strangers from distant lands could fail to recognise his name
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_6}Even in the lands of his enemies his reputation precedes him
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_7}Tales of his glory are told in both friendly and hostile lands alike
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_8}This name would not be out of place in the chronicles of the great
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_9}A walking legend, of whom songs are sung such as have not been heard in an age
{TMT_DREAD_LEVEL_10}A name that will live forever, immortalised in script and song

Hope you don't mind me stepping on your toes but I think this sub mod is such a good idea and enjoyed writing those so much I thought I had to share haha

[Maegfaer]

I appreciate the help tombombadil! However, keep in mind that these descriptions also count for the evil factions. For every one of them, think whether they could also fit one of the Nazgul for example, or an Orc general. Descriptions about love and songs are not very fitting for the Evil factions.

[tombombadil]

I appreciate the help tombombadil! However, keep in mind that these descriptions also count for the evil factions. For everyone of them, think whether they could also fit one of the Nazgul for example, or an Orc general. Descriptions about love and songs are not very fitting for the Evil factions.

Haha, good point, I hadn't thought of that

[paradamed]

I like the idea. The icon is not Tolkienish enough though.

[Maegfaer]

I like the idea. The icon is not Tolkienish enough though.

I agree. I replaced it with a horn:



Better eh? The horn is rather neutral, both the good and evil factions use horns. I also think it's a nice symbol for Renown, since they are usually blown when big armies or important figures arrive somewhere.

I like the idea, though I think venturing into will be difficult to players used to the current system and M2. There is also the issue of traits gained/affected by fear and respect. Will they be able to be retained? When I have my central Orc commander picked out, I try to make him "The Evil", "The Tyrant", or some thing along those lines

The system is fairly straightforward, I don't think players will find it hard to adapt. Those dread/chivalry traits are gone at the moment, though such titles could be implemented in other ways.

Nice idea and reasoning behind it.

Another place where chivalry/dread comes into things is the prebattle speeches: different speeches depending on whether they have chivalry or dread. I can't remember which file it is in - one of the sound ones I expect - nor whether TATW makes use of it anyway. It might be worth checking.

You are right, sounds will need to be looked at as well. It's not only pre-battle speeches, but also when you select a general on the campaign map (at least for some factions).




Edit: Incidentally, this is how it would look like with Obedience replaced with Management: