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Thread: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

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    Default The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    I've been following this topic closely because, quite frankly, every politician who has made a comment on the matter seems to have their head so far up their own arse they see sunshine. Obama's recent executive order for federal contractors in essence does nothing, another neutered attempt of this moron to make a sweeping change that ends up actually doing nothing. His attempts to influence congress to change the national minimum wage to $10.10 fortunately, at this point, seems to be nothing more than a pipe dream. More political floundering and flourishing for this failed president for him to point blindly and shout about how the Republicans have sabotaged him yet again. But I digress. Obama's recent actions have merely shone the spotlight on the issue of minimum wage yet again, and has allowed some of the scum of the nation a soapbox. Some speak about an awakening of the workers in an almost Marx-esque movement. I only wish their thinking was half as sophisticated. Instead we are dealing with morons like this young man. Not only is it his "right" to be paid a higher wage, but he seems confused as to why working 14-24 hours a week at KFC doesn't provide him with a wage to move out of his father's house where he lives with his girlfriend and two children. This has got to be some sort of joke, right? No, sir, an entry level fast food job will not even come close to supporting your family of four. It never has, it never should, and it never will.

    I've worked plenty of dead end entry level jobs. You get promoted when you learn new skills and become more valuable. Most of the times these promotions come with extra responsibilities related to your skills and rarely with an increase in authority. Proficiency in a second language, speed/productivity, interpersonal communication skills, technological proficiency, all provide employees with adjusted and increased compensation. It's the basic incentive offered for workers to become better workers, make more money, and at the same time do whatever the business does in a better, more profitable way. No doubt some companies do it better than others, but the basic logic makes sense.

    I'll leave it up to you, dear reader, to read what the media has to say about the issue instead of rehashing their points regarding franchise standards and the national debate.

    Why is this issue so important? Because Obama's crusade against small business and working people has been masked, in the traditional democratic way, as appearing to be in favor of small business and the working people. The American dream is an abstract, almost ridiculous concept that we often reference in regards to business and entrepreneurship in these United States. The basic precepts, that anyone can come to this nation and through hard work and dedication make a great living for themselves, is often and rightly challenged by those who recognize that our society and economic model is more complicated than that. Regardless, the concept has some merit. I've never heard of anyone except the lucky few lottery winners who come into large amount of money by accident. Few could argue with the logic that hard work and dedication provides a greater chance of financial success than not. We are witnessing an end to that thinking. I don't want to use buzzwords such as socialism or communism because that's disingenuous, but we do seem to be witnessing a dramatic change in attitude. People, fast food workers, seem to believe that holding a job -any job- and working part time hours entitles them to the American dream.

    The Obama administration has sabotaged this principle. It has created disincentives to working more and set up barriers to improvement.

    Regulation provides barriers to business.
    Minimum wage increases > less workers afforded > layoffs
    Minimum wage increases > business costs increase > prices in general increase > inflation

    AHCA defines full time employment as <30 hours/week
    Less full time work
    Hour caps > working 40 hours a week, a standard work week, is now a 'benefit' instead of an expectation > businesses don't want to pay for the extra benefits, cap hours, hire more part time workers > decrease in unemployment > decrease average income

    Corporations are still people
    Enough said. Big business and special interests, the people Obama swore would play no part in Washington or politics, now have more influence than ever

    If the fast food strike happens I hope McDonalds, KFC, and Burger King do the right thing and fire everyone who participates without hesitation. You are a fast food worker. You are replaceable. You are entitled to nothing.

    It's a shame the Republicans can't do at least something right by providing a viable alternative. Maybe when they stop nominating out of touch, elderly white men more concerned with fighting a losing battle regarding abortion and gay marriage than winning votes something can be done about the ridiculous state of affairs 8 years of this imbecile Obama has imposed on this nation. Somehow, though, I doubt it.

  2. #2
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    On the other hand rise of minimum wage earn you votes, so why not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    ShockBlast's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Minimum wage increases > demand raises for goods because people have more money > people are being employed to accommodate with the increased demand

    It`s not perfect but it works much better then make the rich richer and the poor poorer.


    Companies aren`t people, who the hell believes this? Companies are legal entities or "legal persons" but they aren`t natural persons - your average Joe made of flesh and bone. It`s like walking with a mature lion on the street and saying you are walking your cat out.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    Minimum wage increases > demand raises for goods because people have more money > people are being employed to accommodate with the increased demand
    That really depends how much wage raise it is, especially cost of goods also increase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    ShockBlast's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    That really depends how much wage raise it is, especially cost of goods also increase.
    No it would not.The increase in wage aren`t money that are added into the market, those are money that are being taken from the profits of the companies.It`s actually redistribution from the medium and high class to the lower class, in a broad sense.

    Let`s do an exercise, we know that in `murrica the 1% rich hold like 40% of the wealth, right? Let`s just say that out of the blue they disappear together with their wealth.What would happen to the purchasing power of the rest of the `muricans ?

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    No it would not.The increase in wage aren`t money that are added into the market, those are money that are being taken from the profits of the companies.It`s actually redistribution from the medium and high class to the lower class, in a broad sense.
    I am pretty sure wage is part of labor cost, and whether the increase of labor cost would be reflected on market or not is heavily depending on the decision of producers themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    ShockBlast's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I am pretty sure wage is part of labor cost, and whether the increase of labor cost would be reflected on market or not is heavily depending on the decision of producers themselves.
    Of course it`s part of the cost but it`s only a part of the hole cost.OK, so those greedy bastards would rather increase the price of their goods then lose profits.An increase in wage of, let`s say 10%, could very well translate to an increase 2, 3%(or more) in the production of the good or service provided depending of the percent of the cost of the wage from the hole cost of said good or service.

    The potential increase in the final price of selling would result in an increase of purchasing power of the people that benefit from the wage increase.

    I don`t understand why a small bump in the final price is used as an excuse while the increased wage would still bring more in terms of demand created.Everyone knows that the lower class spends the vast majority of their earnings, unlike the middle or high class.


    Did you figure out the answer to my little exercise?

    Quote Originally Posted by empr guy View Post
    Are the companies going to just eat the extra costs then? Either they try to give less hours or they raise their prices, it's not a huge effect when they just raise minimum wage a dollar or so every few years, but if they go the Seattle route of raising it to 150% then theres going to be an unpleasant effect somewhere.
    Everything more then 10% would distort the financial projections of all companies far too much.Of course, those increases should be done after the studying the effects on the market and it should be done over a few years in the state wants to raise those salaries with more then 10 percent.
    Last edited by ShockBlast; May 08, 2014 at 01:02 PM.

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    Ciciro's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    The minimum wage should have been raised awhile ago. It hasn't even kept up with inflation.

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    Earl Dibbles Jr's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Minimum wage increases.
    All wages increase.
    Prices increase.
    Back to square one.

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    empr guy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    yeesh, you could have copy pasted GED's posts in the other thread out of order and made a more coherent thread, I'm not sure if you're complaining about the guy who doesn't know why 13 hours a week doesn't sustain his family of 4 (everyone agrees this is ridiculous, if he can't find/get other jobs that is entirely different then not being paid enough at the one he works) or you just really want everyone to know you really hate obama.


    A lot of the problem comes from things like McDonalds response; which was to release a sample budget that assumes that the person is basically going to work 2 full time jobs and pay nothing for utilities, gas, or groceries, it's just unrealistic. Saying that you more or less don't care is not a response that earns you friends. I don't believe raising minimum wage to $15 an hour like some places is really viable, I think that would cause inflation/job loss/etc that wouldn't be made up by the raise, but it still needs to keep up with inflation and things like that, people need to be capable of making more then what they need to live.

    From your last link;
    "We've gone global," said Ashley Cathey, a McDonald's worker from Memphis, Tenn., who makes $7.75 an hour after six years on the job.

    That seems to be the real problem; if the fast food chains are just not giving people raises beyond the starting wage. Maybe I'm being naive but if you've kept the job for 6 years you're probably doing it right, at which point wanting a raise from 50 cents above minimum wage that everyone earns from day one is not unreasonable. If that's actually true or if this woman is just someone whose been part time for 6 years and hasn't put more then required effort into the job, the article doesn't say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shockblast
    No it would not.The increase in wage aren`t money that are added into the market, those are money that are being taken from the profits of the companies.It`s actually redistribution from the medium and high class to the lower class, in a broad sense.
    Are the companies going to just eat the extra costs then? Either they try to give less hours or they raise their prices, it's not a huge effect when they just raise minimum wage a dollar or so every few years, but if they go the Seattle route of raising it to 150% then theres going to be an unpleasant effect somewhere.
    Last edited by empr guy; May 08, 2014 at 12:50 PM.
    odi et amo quare id faciam fortasse requiris / nescio sed fieri sentio et excrucior


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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by empr guy View Post
    Are the companies going to just eat the extra costs then? Either they try to give less hours or they raise their prices, it's not a huge effect when they just raise minimum wage a dollar or so every few years, but if they go the Seattle route of raising it to 150% then theres going to be an unpleasant effect somewhere.
    Like I said, it depends; some goods can simply use the the increase of sell quantity to earn same amount of profit, but other goods may not. In the end, to earn same amount of total profit is the common goal, but there are multiple ways to achieve that, and most time it depends on the elasticity of goods itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    1. Offshoring to China has in more than one way kept the lid on wages, not only minimum.

    2. By importing cheaper goods, inflation is kept in check.

    3. By letting people borrow against the value of their real estate, which seemed to rise indefinitely, it opened up capital that allowed them to substitute debt for raises.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

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    empr guy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    My mistake, I assumed you were talking about the minimum wage in your thread about.... minimum wage.
    odi et amo quare id faciam fortasse requiris / nescio sed fieri sentio et excrucior


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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by empr guy View Post
    My mistake, I assumed you were talking about the minimum wage in your thread about.... minimum wage.
    I'm talking about setting a minimum wage or increasing minimum wage in conjunction with the fast food strikes for their $15/hour. That being said it's obvious to me you either didn't read my post or misinterpreted it.

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    empr guy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    oh, I was talking about the minimum wage in general, for the AHCA part I thought you had moved onto something else since google is telling me that's a healthcare foundation.


    $15 an hour for fast food workers is dumb imo, like I said in my first post no one should expect to support a family off of a min. wage job. I agree that states are separate in their situations, that's why I said I don't see where the $10 comes from, afaik that's the actual proposed new min wage and the $15 is just from a bunch of pissed off fast food workers. Realistically the 7.25 isn't terrible since from what I can find most states just use that (and the ones who aren't happy with it are free to increase it), increasing to 8 is just if Obama is just super set on increasing the min wage since it isn't a huge jump.
    odi et amo quare id faciam fortasse requiris / nescio sed fieri sentio et excrucior


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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    But we've had a minimum wage in line with inflation so surely people in the UK are living it large right? It must have addressed inequality and sorted out the lot of the poor.

    No now its calls for a living wage instead of a minimum wage and that will fix all the problems as inequality continues to grow. Turns out it isn't a silver bullet and people are no better off in the UK than before the minimum wage was introduced.

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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Minimum wage does have a role, the issue is that its role is either far greater then it should be or far lower then it should be.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by SLN445 View Post
    Minimum wage does have a role, the issue is that its role is either far greater then it should be or far lower then it should be.
    That depends; I think the adoption of minimum wage is simply because government is too lazy to set up a complex solution to maintain a free labor market, hence in order to protect disadvantage groups (mainly female and child workers) government picked the easy solution - just set up a limit wage for everyone!! Afterall it is cheaper, less time consuming and still win the votes, so why not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    That depends; I think the adoption of minimum wage is simply because government is too lazy to set up a complex solution to maintain a free labor market, hence in order to protect disadvantage groups (mainly female and child workers) government picked the easy solution - just set up a limit wage for everyone!! Afterall it is cheaper, less time consuming and still win the votes, so why not?
    What complex solutions are there? :3 i must admit that my knowledge on such subjects is limited.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: The Minimum Wage Debate - Why We Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by SLN445 View Post
    What complex solutions are there? :3 i must admit that my knowledge on such subjects is limited.
    Technically government would need to set up a series of laws to make sure no abuse of labor market, including to prevent the employers of specific industry reached unofficial agreement to abuse labor market together, especially to unskilled workers. Then government would need to set up organizations to monitor the labor market to make sure no one break the laws (yes, send out the inquisitors!!). In the end, all those are time consuming and needs resource, and the efficiency is not 100% (capitalist pigs would always find holes on laws). Furthermore by adopting minimum wage the problem is transfered to the society, which means less works and less responsibility to government, and everyone in government loves that.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; May 09, 2014 at 05:37 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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