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Thread: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    A fun article I found in BBC.

    Sixty years ago this week, French troops were defeated by Vietnamese forces at Dien Bien Phu. As historian Julian Jackson explains, it was a turning point in the history of both nations, and in the Cold War - and a battle where some in the US appear to have contemplated the use of nuclear weapons.

    "Would you like two atomic bombs?" These are the words that a senior French diplomat remembered US Secretary of State John Foster Dulles asking the French Foreign Minister, Georges Bidault, in April 1954. The context of this extraordinary offer was the critical plight of the French army fighting the nationalist forces of Ho Chi Minh at Dien Bien Phu in the highlands of north-west Vietnam.

    The battle of Dien Bien Phu is today overshadowed by the later involvement of the Americans in Vietnam in the 1960s. But for eight years between 1946 and 1954 the French had fought their own bloody war to hold on to their Empire in the Far East. After the seizure of power by the Communists in China in 1949, this colonial conflict had become a key battleground of the Cold War. The Chinese provided the Vietnamese with arms and supplies while most of the costs of the French war effort were borne by America. But it was French soldiers who were fighting and dying. By 1954, French forces in Indochina totalled over 55,000.

    At the end of 1953, French commander in chief Gen Navarre had decided to set up a fortified garrison in the valley of Dien Bien Phu, in the highlands about 280 miles from the northern capital of Hanoi. The valley was surrounded by rings of forested hills and mountains. The position was defensible providing the French could hold on to the inner hills and keep their position supplied through the airstrip. What they underestimated was the capacity of the Vietnamese to amass artillery behind the hills. This equipment was transported by tens of thousands of labourers - many of them women and children - carrying material hundreds of miles through the jungle day and night. On 13 March the Vietnamese unleashed a massive barrage of artillery and within two days two of the surrounding hills had been taken, and the airstrip was no longer usable. The French defenders were now cut off and the noose tightened around them.

    It was this critical situation which led the French to appeal in desperation for US help. The most hawkish on the American aide were Vice-President Richard Nixon, who had no political power, and Admiral Radford, Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Also quite hawkish was the US Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, who was obsessed by the crusade against Communism. More reserved was President Eisenhower who nonetheless gave a press conference in early April where he proclaimed the infamous "domino theory" about the possible spread of Communism from one country to another.

    "You have a row of dominoes set up, you knock over the first one, and what will happen to the last one is the certainty that it will go over very quickly," he said. "So you could have a beginning of a disintegration that would have the most profound influences."

    Saturday 3 April 1954 has gone down in American history as "the day we didn't go to war". On that day Dulles met Congressional leaders who were adamant they would not support any military intervention unless Britain was also involved. Eisenhower sent a letter to the British Prime Minister Winston Churchill warning of the consequences for the West if Dien Bien Phu fell. It was around this time, at a meeting in Paris, that Dulles supposedly made his astonishing offer to the French of tactical nuclear weapons.

    In fact, Dulles was never authorised to make such an offer and there is no hard evidence that he did so. It seems possible that in the febrile atmosphere of those days the panic-stricken French may simply have misunderstood him. Or his words may have got lost in translation.

    "He didn't really offer. He made a suggestion and asked a question. He uttered the two fatal words 'nuclear bomb'," Maurice Schumann, a former foreign minister, said before his death in 1998. "Bidault immediately reacted as if he didn't take this offer seriously."

    According to Professor Fred Logevall of Cornell University, Dulles "at least talked in very general terms about the possibility, what did the French think about potentially using two or three tactical nuclear weapons against these enemy positions".

    Bidault declined, he says, "because he knew… that if this killed a lot of Viet Minh troops then it would also basically destroy the garrison itself".

    In the end, there was no American intervention of any kind, as the British refused to go along with it.
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    Artillery gun at Dien Ben Phu battleground

    When France lost control of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos nearly 60 years ago, hundreds of people who had served the French colonial system - and were at risk of persecution - were rehoused in a disused army camp in south-west France. It was meant to be a temporary home, but some are still there.

    The last weeks of the battle of Dien Bien Phu were atrociously gruelling. The ground turned to mud once the monsoon began, and men clung to craters and ditches in conditions reminiscent of the battle of Verdun in 1916. On 7 May 1954, after a 56-day siege, the French army surrendered. Overall on the French side there were 1,142 dead, 1,606 disappeared, 4,500 more or less badly wounded. Vietnamese casualties ran to 22,000.
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    So now, what if French accepted it and dropped them on Vietminh?
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    Darkhorse's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Increasing comfortability with the deployment of nuclear weapons, even tactical devices, would have been a game changer. I'm not suggesting that a full blown nuclear war would have happened because of an increase in the tactical use of the weapons in colonial wars, but there is the age old deterrence and escalation argument and it should be considered.

    The viability of using tactical devices in conflicts such as Vietnam, or Afghanistan in the 1980's, or perhaps Israel in Yom Kippur (which I believe they were considering anyway) would have increased. I don't think these would be guaranteed to have actually changed the overall outcome of such conflicts, but obviously in an event such as Dien Bien Phu it could have been, but in other situations I'm not sure sure. I'm not familiar with the yield of 1950's tactical devices, but I would be surprised if some of the conventional weapons the French were having dropped were more destructive.

    The ethical and political situations would have, excuse the pun, blown up and I'd imagine there'd have been a number of new laws banning the use of tactical nuclear weapons in populated areas etc had their use become common and viable.

    Lets imagine for a second that Egypt put up a better fight and necessitated the use of a British or French tactical devices been used in the Suez Crisis, the political outcome would have swung wildly to the extremes of the spectrum (i.e. a crushing victory for Eden, or a political disaster of an ever greater scale than the one which occurred) and you can bet that US and USSR reactions would have been far more extreme - good for Syria and Egypt, but poor Hungary...

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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Bad luck for the French paras, as the Viet Minh were only there because the French were there. The very point of Dien Bien Phu was for the French to appear there and attract the Viet Minh to the place. I suspect the French people would rather lose Indochina than nuke their own soldiers that they'd knowingly sent there. It's one thing to be bait to bring the enemy to battle, another to be nuked whilst thinking that you were there to bring the enemy to battle.

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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    The nukes mentioned in article are probably strategical, since tactical nukes did not appear in US military until late 50s. It does seem a good time to use nukes however, since Soviet was not internally stable at this stage and China did not have nukes yet.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; May 07, 2014 at 05:47 PM.
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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Although the Japanese don't hate Americans much at all today even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there's a good chance that the Vietnamese today would hate the French even more than Americans. France - and by extension the US - would probably be criticized pretty heavily over the decision to continue using nukes.

    As for the Soviets, nuclear testing began in 1949 and continued on into the 1950s, culminating with the test explosion of the 50 Megaton hydrogen bomb called Tsar Bomba in 1961. So, despite any internal problems, the Soviets were capable of retaliating and possibly instigating MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) with the US.

    It's a good thing no more nuclear bombs have been dropped in a combat zone since. It's basically genocide with the push of a button. Countries usually kiss and make up after fighting wars, no matter how bitter they were as enemies during the fight. Dropping nuclear bombs is a sure way to destroy any possibilities for later reconciliation. There are many reasons the US and Japan are buddy-buddies now, including obviously the US occupation of the islands following surrender, but that wouldn't always be the case, especially when both sides are annihilating the other with nuclear bombs.

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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    especially when both sides are annihilating the other with nuclear bombs.
    I don't see the difference between dropping thousands incendiary bombs and dropping one nuke - afterall the damage was same.
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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I don't see the difference between dropping thousands incendiary bombs and dropping one nuke - afterall the damage was same.
    Yeah, carpet bombing was obviously atrocious in WWII, but this isn't the 1940s anymore, that's not how warfare is conducted these days, and the atomic bombs dropped back then were minor league compared to what we have now. We now have thermonuclear bombs that can wipe out major cities far larger than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In the blink of an eye, Paris, London, New York, Washington D.C., Moscow, Beijing, etc. etc. could be vaporized, with people as far as the distant suburbs experiencing a massive earthquake from the shock wave, radioactive contamination from the fallout, and severe skin burns.

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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Yeah, carpet bombing was obviously atrocious in WWII, but this isn't the 1940s anymore, that's no how warfare is conducted these days, and the atomic bombs dropped back then were minor league compared to what we have now. We now have thermonuclear bombs that can wipe out major cities far larger than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In the blink of an eye, Paris, London, New York, Washington D.C., Moscow, Beijing, etc. etc. could be vaporized, with people as far as the distant suburbs experiencing a massive earthquake from the shock wave, radioactive contamination from the fallout, and severe skin burns.
    Hmm I agree, it is much cheaper and effective to kill population using starvation than dumping nukes, just like how Hitler tried to do on Leningrad.
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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I don't see the difference between dropping thousands incendiary bombs and dropping one nuke - afterall the damage was same.
    The main difference is that nuclear bombs have lasting effects for many generations afterwards. Incidiary bombs caused more damage, but within a much shorter time span. After the initial devastation it's easier to go through normal psychological stages, get closure, and move on -- in the case of nuclear bombs the effects last for generations, so it's harder for people to put it behind them.

    In other words, the fire bombings are a distant horrific event by now; the atomic bombings are not-so-distant horrific event.

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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    using starvation
    I was thinking more about recent urban warfare tactics, like seen in Iraq. Starvation can happen during the siege of a city, sure, but overdrawn sieges are usually scrapped these days for rapid ground assaults combined with precision bombing from the air. Carpet bombing is no longer necessary with the technology we have, which greatly reduces civilian casualties (obviously).

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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I was thinking more about recent urban warfare tactics, like seen in Iraq. Starvation can happen during the siege of a city, sure, but overdrawn sieges are usually scrapped these days for rapid ground assaults combined with precision bombing from the air. Carpet bombing is no longer necessary with the technology we have, which greatly reduces civilian casualties (obviously).
    Except precise bombing cannot 100% destroy enemy position, especially when those positions digged in hard enough; that was technically what happened during Dien Bien Phu, when French found out their precise bombing against AA positions often never worked.

    But in the end I think we are out of topic, since in this situation the nuke were not planning to drop on urban area with civilian as targets, but a remote area with high concentration of enemies.
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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Simply annihilating a purely military target with no civilian casualties would leave the Vietnamese less traumatized, I think, which was the crux of what Ivan the Terrible was saying about the effects of a nuclear bombing against a major city on generations to come. Would a single use against one remote, rural military target have been enough to cow the Vietminh into surrender, though?

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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Would a single use against one remote, rural military target have been enough to cow the Vietminh into surrender, though?
    It would not, but it would cripple Vietminh's military force and give Vietminh less bargain chips; in the end French probably still needed to leave, but at least the country would not be divided into two Vietnams and the new Indochina would not be controlled by a Stalinist party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    The French would be voraciously mocked for using such a cowardly tactic in war.......oh wait a minute.
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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    The only way to use those nukes without killing the 20,000 French soldiers would have been to evacuate them first. Something which couldn't be done under fire and couldn't have happened unnoticed.

    The sole purpose of the French setting up camp at Dien Bien Phu was to attract there a large force of the Viet Minh and then to annihilate it. Without a suitable bait the Viet Minh would have kept its units dispersed, therefore impossible to nuke. On the other hand the bait was represented by thousands of French soldiers, which automatically ruled out using the nukes. This is why even if the Americans would have made the offer, the French would not have taken seriously.

    Using napalm would have been a better option, but the French had not prepared for that.
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: "Two nukes for you French" - US gave France two nukes to nuke Vietminh in Dien Bien Phu, and French did it

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    The only way to use those nukes without killing the 20,000 French soldiers would have been to evacuate them first.
    Ya, but since the battle was already decided in May 7 why not dropped the bomb that day? Afterall dropped the bomb in May 7 or not French still lose 20k soldiers, but by dropping the bomb French would kill 50k Vietminh crack troops and their heavy equipments.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; May 08, 2014 at 02:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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