Belgium, too democratic?

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

I must be carefull what I write here

I can only speak for the Flemish region. More and more are people having the idea that our nation is going into finacial,cultural and political decline.
Financial: A GDP of 99,8% (in comparison Netherlands 77.3 and Germany 81%), a rapidly aging average population (see graphic), so our pensionswill rise even more

Cultural: Now after 50 years of immigration 6.3% of the population is Muslim (official number but it is much higher) and their birthrate is higher than the 'native' counterpart. I am not saying this is bad but many of them are not contributing to the system. But yes I say cultural variety is not always better.
Political decline: To counter problems in the huge problems in our society we need to have politcal action but our burocracy is going very slow.
http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/989/Bin...sch-laag.dhtml
It is in Dutch but I wil give some pointers: 4/10 has confidence in our politicans , 5/10 in our democracy , 3.9/10 in our government , the economic situation 4.32/10
Note this are numbers out of 2009 so it will be lower/different now

Last time we made a federal government we broke the world record (now 541days) and with elections this month it will start all over again

this is the political landscape in Belgium

this is the government now
http://www.nieuwsblad.be/extra/verki...n2014/peiling/
will in the next government the Flemish more nationalist party be included
With all these parties we can not make one policy to counter our problems
Are we not to democratic?
What is the future of my country? Do we need a strong leader to set things straight? (If I put it like that it sounds like we are in the late Roman republic )
What is your opinion?

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

Or some other type of government?

[Treize]

"TOLD YOU SO!"

[Mary The Quene]

Hopefully the PS and SPA won't take part of the federal goverment.

Let's hope MR in wallonia gets enough votes to get a federal majority of NVA/CDV/VLD/MR

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

Hopefully the PS and SPA won't take part of the federal goverment.

Let's hope MR in wallonia gets enough votes to get a federal majority of NVA/CDV/VLD/MR

That is one solution that will work in the short term

I think we should abandon the double party system (but the population and the politicans are not ready for this )

It is a sinking ship When I graduate I will try to help or I will move on outside this country

[sabaku_no_gaara]

That is one solution that will work in the short term

I think we should abandon the double party system (but the population and the politicans are not ready for this )

It is a sinking ship When I graduate I will try to help or I will move on outside this country

Or you make the votes equal, one problem is that a Walloon vote is worth more than a Flemish vote to compensate the fact that Flemish people outnumber Walloon people. A Flemish elected official needs double the amount of votes a Walloon elected official would need. Problem will be that Walloons could end up feeling like an oppressed minority.


anyway Belgium's problem isn't too much democracy, Belgium's problem is a problem that plagues every democracy: Politicians trying to manipulate voters is creating partisanship and people aren't really looking at the issues anymore, spa, vld & cd&v only talk about nva and how evil they are (heck, even in Antwerp where they took over from the socialists, when they enacted a measure that was voted and decided by the previous socialist administration, the first thing the socialists did was acuse Nva of being racist neo nazi's), and Nva is bashing everything government does regardless of it being positive or negative.

[King Gambrinus]

Hopefully the PS and SPA won't take part of the federal goverment.

Let's hope MR in wallonia gets enough votes to get a federal majority of NVA/CDV/VLD/MR

It will be very funny to watch a bunch of amateurs try to run the country.

Or you make the votes equal, one problem is that a Walloon vote is worth more than a Flemish vote to compensate the fact that Flemish people outnumber Walloon people. A Flemish elected official needs double the amount of votes a Walloon elected official would need. Problem will be that Walloons could end up feeling like an oppressed minority.

They already are. A vote for the Flemish Christian Democrats back in the days when we had a unitary government was effectively a vote for redeveloping Flanders when Wallonia needed just as much help with the closing of coal mines. Flanders already gets a huge sum of money from the federal government compared to Wallonia yet their overall regional tax revenue is higher, as many people who work in Brussels (which is not part of Flanders and never has been a part of Flanders) live in Flanders and pay taxes there.

Honestly, the Flemish inferiority complex is starting to piss me off. These nationalists are the same people who accuse Walloons of being archaic socialists when it is them who taxed the Walloon bourgeoisie in order to fund the development of Antwerp as an international port. These are the guys who complain that we always vote for the same party (PS) when they had the Christian Democrats in their government for as long with even more counts of corruption. These are the same people who accuse francophones of cultural genocide when they have claimed Limburg and Brabant as 100% Flemish, created their own uniform Flemish state language and are slowly stigmatising any people who dare stand up to their world-view of a conservative Flanders.

The reason why a Walloon vote counts more than a Flemish one is because this was the federalised system demanded by Flemish nationalists. If we had one electoral district whereby a Walloon could vote for a Flemish party and vice versa then we could have a 1 man 1 vote system. Instead, we had a process whereby if just the Flemish decide to give the N-VA a majority they could have ended up dictating what Walloons should and should not be doing. Hence why we decided to have a system whereby you need some Walloon co-operation in order to govern the country.

Furthermore I wish we could adopt the Dutch system of rewarding those who win in election and punish those who lose. We're going to have just as fractured a political landscape as our Northern friends after these elections so its paramount we recognise who has lost the mandate to govern. The fact that the socialists lost in the Walloon regional elections back in 2009 but still ended up in government was really the wrong message. But then again that is due to MR's leadership being the definition of a .

In terms of predictions I think Open VLD will replace SP.a in the Flemish government due to Verhofstadt, Rutten and De Blok mania (please get rid of De Croo though). In Brussels whoever makes 3rd place will be kingmaker so that could interesting - I hope it will be FDF. In Wallonia, MR will win with the far-left and far right making big gains so you could end up with a grand coalition. Ecolo and Cdh in opposition with the extremes.

knows what will happen on the federal level. It will depend on whether the two socialist parties hold up strong enough to make it impossible for a centre-right coalition. Otherwise if the centre-right parties (with N-VA) can form a majority they will do so very quickly and tear this country apart once and for all

[Andreius Pretorianus]

sincerley,Bruxelles is already 50% non white and (white native)belgians keep fighting between them for the partition of a country,wich will be inhereted in 1-2 generations by non native belgians.

What s the use ?Instead of the wallonians and flemish uniting against immigration,to save their country....

[Andreius Pretorianus]

perhaps,Hitler s germanic ideology would outcast most white europeans from the ubermensch status.That s why I am not fully NS,but believe in White Unity regardless of nationality.

Regarding my "suiteness" to comment on Belgian democracy,I am an european citisen,and I have every right to comment on european policies.

So yeah,1-0 for me

[Adar]

perhaps,Hitler s germanic ideology would outcast most white europeans from the ubermensch status.That s why I am not fully NS,but believe in White Unity regardless of nationality.

So yeah,1-0 for me

No what you believe is in is unity between white people and people who like to think they are white.

Personally I think this is rather pathetic as I am quite literally white and do not care about the skin color of other people (unless they think that they are "white" and think this makes them better).

Historically we also see that hanging on to superficial differences often end badly. The Wallonian part of Belgium was for example richer than the Flemish part during the first half of the 20th century but then their coal and heavy industry declined and now it is the Flemish who got a snobbish attitude towards the Wallonians.

So learning by the Belgian example (which led to the current political system that the OP is unhappy about) I am going to be consider non-whites like yourself as equal to me despite your slighly more swarthy complexion.

[Andreius Pretorianus]

No what you believe is in is unity between white people and people who like to think they are white.

Personally I think this is rather pathetic as I am quite literally white and do not care about the skin color of other people (unless they think that they are "white" and think this makes them better).

Historically we also see that hanging on to superficial differences often end badly. The Wallonian part of Belgium was for example richer than the Flemish part during the first half of the 20th century but then their coal and heavy industry declined and now it is the Flemish who got a snobbish attitude towards the Wallonians.

So learning by the Belgian example (which led to the current political system that the OP is unhappy about) I am going to be consider non-whites like yourself as equal to me despite your slighly more swarthy complexion.

Good for you then.I for one,choose to be proud of my racial haritage,it s something no one can take away from me.
Regarding discrimination,it will always exist in society,be it racial,religious,economically,or as is the trend nowdays discriminating against traditonal values.But that s case for another thread,stop derailing this one

[Adar]

Good for you then.I for one,choose to be proud of my racial haritage,it s something no one can take away from me.
Regarding discrimination,it will always exist in society,be it racial,religious,economically,or as is the trend nowdays discriminating against traditonal values.But that s case for another thread,stop derailing this one

Ironically "pride in my heritage" is one of the major factors of Belgian politics.

In Belgium Flemish voters vote for one list of parties and Wallonians for a completely different list of parties. And this is why the political situation in Belgium is such a mess. Lets take the current election as an example.

In Flandern votes are:
N-VA (right wing moderate Flemish nationalist) 33%
Christen-Democratisch en Vlaams (Centre-right) 16%. T
Open Vlaamse Liberalen en Democraten (Centre right liberal) 15%.
Socialists will follow in fourth place with 14%.
Vlaams Belang (Far rightVB) 7 %

Which mean that a right wing alliance would only require 2 parties to become fairly stable and 3 parties to reach a strong majority.

In Wallonia votes are:
Parti Socialiste (Leftwing) 33 %
Liberal Mouvement Réformateur (Centre right) 20%.
Centre-party Centre Démocrate Humaniste (Centre) 14 %
Ecolo party (Green probably leftwingish) 11 %
Parti du Travail de Belgique (extreme left) 9%

Which could produce a stable Centre-left coalition with 2 parties.

Now try to combine these numbers into a stable coalition and you will realize that you need at least 4 and probably 5 parties to reach a government with a stable majority as Belgium de facto consist of two nations trying to form one federal government as people are too stuck up on their ethnic history rather than a common interest in Belgium.

[Winston Smith]

Good for you then.I for one,choose to be proud of my racial haritage,it s something no one can take away from me.
Regarding discrimination,it will always exist in society,be it racial,religious,economically,or as is the trend nowdays discriminating against traditonal values.But that s case for another thread,stop derailing this one

If I had to chose between betraying my "race" and betraying my friends, I wouldn't even think before siding with the latter. Race is irrelevant.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

No what you believe is in is unity between white people and people who like to think they are white.

Personally I think this is rather pathetic as I am quite literally white and do not care about the skin color of other people (unless they think that they are "white" and think this makes them better).

Historically we also see that hanging on to superficial differences often end badly. The Wallonian part of Belgium was for example richer than the Flemish part during the first half of the 20th century but then their coal and heavy industry declined and now it is the Flemish who got a snobbish attitude towards the Wallonians.

So learning by the Belgian example (which led to the current political system that the OP is unhappy about) I am going to be consider non-whites like yourself as equal to me despite your slighly more swarthy complexion.

The thing is, that back then when Wallonia was the rich part, they weren't too much into solidarity either.

in the 1920's or 30's the government fell over the child allowance. (an allowance family's receive for every child they have to compensate the money drain that children are) anyway, someone proposed to raise it, and the Francophone politicians of the socialist party went absolutely berserk, claiming that it was common knowledge that Flemish people breed like rabbits and that Walloons would end up paying for "ce lapinisme flamand" or Flemish rabitism and on top of that everyone knew that Flemish children had a tendency to die before the age of 12, so they'd end up paying for dead Flemish children!

[King Gambrinus]

The thing is, that back then when Wallonia was the rich part, they weren't too much into solidarity either.

in the 1920's or 30's the government fell over the child allowance. (an allowance family's receive for every child they have to compensate the money drain that children are) anyway, someone proposed to raise it, and the Francophone politicians of the socialist party went absolutely berserk, claiming that it was common knowledge that Flemish people breed like rabbits and that Walloons would end up paying for "ce lapinisme flamand" or Flemish rabitism and on top of that everyone knew that Flemish children had a tendency to die before the age of 12, so they'd end up paying for dead Flemish children!

What Flamingants have yet to understand is that the PS-voters of today have nothing to do with the people who surpressed the Flemish peasantry (and Walloon proleteriat) all those years ago. Blaming your previous problems on the entire entity of Wallonia because we were all governed by a Francophone bourgeoisie largely made up of ethnic Flemings (fransquillons) is simply not on.

Its the details in history like that that are usually forgotten by "nationalist" historians such as de Wever.

[Andreius Pretorianus]

that s what I am talking about.

Belgians should stop fighting among themselves,because in the end they(the natives) are white.

They should fight against the immigrants who will become a majority,meaning both flemish and wallonian cultures and traditions will die.

[Dromikaites]

Belgians should stop fighting among themselves,because in the end they(the natives) are white.

Do you know your grand-grand-grand-...-grandma was black?

Embarrassing, isn't it?

[Geronimo2006]

Coming from a 97% White country (12% are foreign but not visibly) with a 1% Muslim population here are my thoughts.

There is a drastic difference between the Islam of the Balkans and Turkey on the one hand, and that of the Middle East. The former are secular and democratic, in part because of being surrounded by Christian countries and living with large Christian populations. The ex-Communist secular influence may be a factor too in the Balkans. Pre-Putin Russia had high levels of atheism, and religion there is reviving but only because Putin is pushing it on them (in my opinion).

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

^ True
You will vote for? I think NVA (The online test stated their program matches my opinions)

[sabaku_no_gaara]

De Croo is indeed an idiot, I like Gwendolyn Rutten but not because of her views, it's more base than that, let's just say she could have me any day

according to the voting test, I'm 76 %aligned with open vld and specifically her so I guess I should actually listen to the words coming out of that wonderful mouth.

As long as spa and specifically tobback whom I can't stand and CD&V get hammered I'm happy

I know NVA is the least social party, even neo liberal according to some, but well, my demographic (the handicapped) is never spoken of in their mentioning of punishing the unemployed and cutting back on social security. Would be weird anyway, because first of all we can't just do any job, and second there are restrictions too we can't just go ahead and look for a job either, first we have to contact the federal government who pays us our integration and income replacing allowance, to ask permission to look for a job, they then send us to a doctor, he then gives government his advise, they then decide if we can register as job seeker, and in the mean time we lose our allowance which is a bit higher than what we'd earn the first few years as starters. but they can't really lower that allowance since that would put handicapped especially those with families in trouble, my fiancé works, I get that allowance, and we usually are without money the last week of the month. Getting permission and looking for a job and losing my allowance would bring us into a lot of trouble

That is the only thing I really care about, I'm trying to better my situation through you know, stock speculation and a tak 23 bank investment (I got money thanks to a car accident that killed 2 friends of mine in the process, invested that back then, bought a small studio after a few years, sold that studio last year out of necessity and invested a good chunk of the money) but the problem is that the socialists who like to claim that only selfish rich people born with silver spoons invest money, want to tax that until nothing is left whereas vld and Nva would leave that money alone and actually encourage the sector that could make that money grow fast.

you see my dilemma? The socialists governing, who are supposed to be my party due to me being handicapped, would actually keep me down and the supposed liberal enemy governing would actually benefit me