My impressions... and suggestions.

[Joar]

Let me first say that it is a great mod that I've really enjoyed playing the last weeks. I will post my impressions and also give a few suggestions, some are small others larger. I do know what work you have put into this, so please regard my suggestions as me thinking out loud rather than me saying "do this".

1. I know this is a highly controversial subject, but I actually thinks that you should remove the Romano-brits as a playable faction and replace them with, for example, the Angles. The historical sources from this period is, to say the least, scanty and to claim that there was a united political entity known as the "Romano-brits" with a leader named Vortigern is rather controversial. The mere existence of such a man can - and have been - questioned. After the Roman departure it is, from a historical point of view, very hard to say what happened. We do know that a series of small-scale and mutually antagonistic kingdoms popped up under the banners of local war lords such as Cuneglasus, Maglocunus, Vortipor, Constantine of Dumnonia etc. A large scale invasion made by the Saxons is also very much in question, it is more likely that they came as settlers, mercenaries and merchants rather than invaders. It would, I think, be more interesting to have the Saxons, Angles and Picts/Celts fight it out on the island.

2. One should be able to recruit Germanic mercenaries on the Italian peninsula.

3. Make a land bridge between the Gibraltar to enable a more possible scenario of both Vandal and Mauri/Moorish invasions on the two continents.

4. Create Arab cavalry mercenaries. The Arab cavalry was feared and was used as an elite force by the Romans on several occasions.

5. Use Razor's late Roman general for the ERE!

6. Make an optional downloadable patch that disables the 4tpy-script.

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

Let me first say that it is a great mod that I've really enjoyed playing the last weeks. I will post my impressions and also give a few suggestions, some are small others larger. I do know what work you have put into this, so please regard my suggestions as me thinking out loud rather than me saying "do this".

as I said before, all suggestions are always welcome

1. I know this is a highly controversial subject, but I actually thinks that you should remove the Romano-brits as a playable faction... We do know that a series of small-scale and mutually antagonistic kingdoms popped up under the banners of local war lords such as Cuneglasus, Maglocunus, Vortipor, Constantine of Dumnonia etc.

I also feel that the RB as a faction is overblown as far as relevance to world events at the time, but then so are the Slavs and the Berbers, and so would the Angles.
my ultimate idea is to first build a stable root mod and then later use the unlimited factions idea to shift focus to the west, the east, germania, etc.
for example if focus is on the east then add the Ghassinids, India, the Khusans, and remove RB, the Picts, etc.
if focus is in Germania add in the Thuringians, Heruls, Rugians, remove the Lakhmids, Hephthalites, etc...
but for now, I shall continue w/ current faction list, as I think it is most balanced for whole game world, dunno if there would still be time to do the 'focus' idea

A large scale invasion made by the Saxons is also very much in question, it is more likely that they came as settlers, mercenaries and merchants rather than invaders. It would, I think, be more interesting to have the Saxons, Angles and Picts/Celts fight it out on the island.

am also aware Saxon invasions theory

2. One should be able to recruit Germanic mercenaries on the Italian peninsula.

Visigoths? will have to think about this...

3. Make a land bridge between the Gibraltar to enable a more possible scenario of both Vandal and Mauri/Moorish invasions on the two continents.

this is a good idea

4. Create Arab cavalry mercenaries. The Arab cavalry was feared and was used as an elite force by the Romans on several occasions.

ah, did I forget to? I planned to, they were aklso used a lot by the Sassanians

5. Use Razor's late Roman general for the ERE!

more than just the general's

6. Make an optional downloadable patch that disables the 4tpy-script.

also a good idea, should be easy to do

[Hans Kloss]

@ Romano British.Faction does need be redone (you are right, it is not done very correctly) but I'm not quite sure if general gameplay would actually benefit from yet another barbarian faction.I rather see them as unique culture (mix of Roman and barbarian elements)

@ Germanic mercenaries.After fall of Stilicho there was general mistrust to Germanic soldiers of fortune and anti-Germanic feelings among Romans ran pretty high - Gothic mercenaries were rounded up and put to death.We could probably have them appearing as "scripted"


@landbridge...good thought


@Arab mercenaries. Ammianus Marcelinus mentioned Arab cavalry auxilia driving off some Gothic raiding parties prior to battle of Hadrianopolis.Apparently Goths run away seeing Arabs drinking blood from slit throats of their dead enemies.Romans using Arabs as elite cavalry unit - Do you have any addition information of that?

[Joar]

@ Romano British.Faction does need be redone (you are right, it is not done very correctly) but I'm not quite sure if general gameplay would actually benefit from yet another barbarian faction.I rather see them as unique culture (mix of Roman and barbarian elements)

Yes, but from my own experience playing, they ( the Romano-brits ) always ends up rather powerful, first taking out the Picts, then moving on to Gaul etc. It just seems wrong. I totally get what you try to achieve ( a fight for Britannia ), but if you don't want to include another barbarian faction, maybe one could modify the RB's a bit, perhaps have them start with only one city or even as a weak horde? The other provinces would be owned by Rebels ( Free People ) to signify other Romano-Brittish warlords and noblemen. That way the player would really get the feel of a culture fighting for it's life from the start.

@ Germanic mercenaries. After fall of Stilicho there was general mistrust to Germanic soldiers of fortune and anti-Germanic feelings among Romans ran pretty high - Gothic mercenaries were rounded up and put to death. We could probably have them appearing as "scripted"

Yes, I know. But I was more thinking in turns of your mod not just being about the particular year of 410, but to incorporate the entire time frame from 410 and onwards. Kind of looking at the big picture, so to speak. And as we know, Italia came under the influence of various Germanic generals, kings and peoples ( Stilicho, Ricimer, Odovakar, Ostrogoths, Langobardi etc. )

@Arab mercenaries. Ammianus Marcelinus mentioned Arab cavalry auxilia driving off some Gothic raiding parties prior to battle of Hadrianopolis.Apparently Goths run away seeing Arabs drinking blood from slit throats of their dead enemies.Romans using Arabs as elite cavalry unit - Do you have any addition information of that?

Yes and no. I just remember reading about them here and there from the third century onwards, where they are described as an elite cavalry force, valued for their skill on the horseback and "fierceness". I will try to find some nice quotes from my books. I seem to recall ( not sure though ) that Aurelianus used them in his campaigns against Palmyra etc. But I'm not saying that you should have them as a regular recruitable unit for the Romans, but rather as valuable mercenaries in the east.


Another thing. I know it's hard to find the right kind of balance to weaken the WRE. In RTW, there are limits to what one can mod and not. I haven't tried this myself, so I don't know if it works, but it should in theory ( I can try it out and report back ). How about having the WRE starting of with extremely low populations in their cities? This would actually be quite historical since two major problems for the WRE was lack of tax revenues and a constant shortage of citizens to recruit for the armies. The "de-urbanisation" ( people moving out of the cities into the country side ) would also be in line with doing this. The player could not recruit armies from the cities at the start and would have to rely on mercenaries and really value the armies he or she start with.

[Hans Kloss]

Yes, but from my own experience playing, they ( the Romano-brits ) always ends up rather powerful, first taking out the Picts, then moving on to Gaul etc. It just seems wrong. I totally get what you try to achieve ( a fight for Britannia ), but if you don't want to include another barbarian faction, maybe one could modify the RB's a bit, perhaps have them start with only one city or even as a weak horde? The other provinces would be owned by Rebels ( Free People ) to signify other Romano-Brittish warlords and noblemen. That way the player would really get the feel of a culture fighting for it's life from the start

Good points Joar - noted.

Yes, I know. But I was more thinking in turns of your mod not just being about the particular year of 410, but to incorporate the entire time frame from 410 and onwards. Kind of looking at the big picture, so to speak. And as we know, Italia came under the influence of various Germanic generals, kings and peoples ( Stilicho, Ricimer, Odovakar, Ostrogoths, Langobardi etc. )

This is where scripts might come very handy - one should be able to hire them later on in the game.


@ Arabs mercenaries

I have do a bit of research on that plus general on mercenary units of Late Roman Empire.

[Riothamus]

In my mod, in all the 432AD 463AD and 527AD campaigns, I have made the Romano British half barbarian, half Roman(Units are some Celt some Romano,buildings and portraits are barbarian with higher upgrades like the dockyard, large stone wall ect....If balanced historically correct...incursions from the Gaels, Picts, Anglo/Saxons/Jutes, The island becomes a free for all with the poor Britains smack in the middle. An expert would be needed to wield Excalibur or Arthur himself. In my mod when watching the ai play it through , the Celts ,Picts, or Saxons conquer the island. Very rarely do the Romano British.
Also after checking out at the 6.5 export buildings file, my mind was totally blown. the work in this mod is unbelievable!

[Elrond]

In my provincial campaign (justinian 527ad) the saxons almost always win which is how things were meant to be, however if Romano British or the romano britones are played by a person and they dont fight it each other it is possible to drive the saxons out of britian and to invade gaul and futher,

so dont expect the Romano british to win if without intervention, if u want the saxons to loose and u r one of the gothic factions or the ERE it is worth paying tribute 2 or 3000 denari per year to the romano british or romano britones so they win,

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

Maybe one larger Invading Saxon force in Brittain to try and balances forces?

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

Maybe one larger Invading Saxon force in Brittain to try and balances forces?

will be doing that

[cherryfunk]

How about having the WRE starting of with extremely low populations in their cities? This would actually be quite historical since two major problems for the WRE was lack of tax revenues and a constant shortage of citizens to recruit for the armies. The "de-urbanisation" ( people moving out of the cities into the country side ) would also be in line with doing this. The player could not recruit armies from the cities at the start and would have to rely on mercenaries and really value the armies he or she start with.

This is an excellent idea, and does mirror historical reality from what I understand. Perhaps a few select cities can still be large (Rome, Ravenna, Carthage) but most could have low populations.

[Denzil]

It would be a good idea to differentiate the Berbers from the Lahkmids.

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

It would be a good idea to differentiate the Berbers from the Lahkmids.

yes, it would but till now have been searching for info on the timeframe... fior now will just enable different names

How about having the WRE starting of with extremely low populations in their cities? This would actually be quite historical since two major problems for the WRE was lack of tax revenues and a constant shortage of citizens to recruit for the armies. The "de-urbanisation" ( people moving out of the cities into the country side ) would also be in line with doing this. The player could not recruit armies from the cities at the start and would have to rely on mercenaries and really value the armies he or she start with.

problem w/ this is initial populaqtion is directly related to core building level (putting lower population will cause errors) unless core buildings also reduced... hmmm, will see what effect higher building levels w/ lower core building will have...

[Csatádi]

I just started to play IB. Hard/Very Hard. My experiences:
The 0 turn system makes the game very easy for me.
I was very angry when I played with Langobards (appearing on the silly Lombardi name) and tryed to sack Italy because I couldn't march by them! E.g. I came from east, sacked Verona (?) and the AI put my army back to the eastern side of the city. Impossible to march by it so I have to occupy it to reach the peninsula.
I don't know it is a random thing or calculated but extremely annoying.

I tryed the western Rome, too.
I found the -80 unrest modifier too much. This way Rome has no chance to unify the old Rome again.

As I experienced more I will report again.

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

I just started to play IB. Hard/Very Hard. My experiences:
The 0 turn system makes the game very easy for me.
I was very angry when I played with Langobards (appearing on the silly Lombardi name) and tryed to sack Italy because I couldn't march by them! E.g. I came from east, sacked Verona (?) and the AI put my army back to the eastern side of the city. Impossible to march by it so I have to occupy it to reach the peninsula.
I don't know it is a random thing or calculated but extremely annoying.

I haven't edited this so this should be engine based, dunno how to edit such a thing

I tryed the western Rome, too.
I found the -80 unrest modifier too much. This way Rome has no chance to unify the old Rome again.

fixed that will be available in next vers it's related to descr_rebels_factions, seems a 500 value found their way in there

As I experienced more I will report again.

thanx

[Csatádi]

Your mod is cool.

Experiences after a looong night:
-I found the number of ship ancillaries too much. Half of the present chance would be better.
-too many benefactor and man of hour. Half of the present chance would be better.
-The color of Constantine's empire should be something else. I cannot see the unit numbers on their flags and in winter their units are almost invisible on the radar map.
-The figures are too big on the unit icons (on that 20 little card). I cannot see their numbers.
-The descriptions of the Roman offices contains another infos than the codes. It may happen with other factions, I played only W-Romans.
-I found the unique buildings as a fantastic idea. Althrough I would not give them such high bonuses. E.g. villa iovis gives +25 law&happiness bonuses in all. I found it too much in the Christian era. I would assign to this building some pagan conversion bonus. E.g. +10 happiness and +10 pagan conversion.
-I find strange the temples grant xp bonuses to warriors. History shows the religions do not differenciate the effectiveness of armies. I suggest to give lesser bonuses. War gods give generally moral bonuses not xp. I used this bonus table to my mod:

what file did u find this in?

not files. Ok. Maybe I had wrote in riddles. I wanted to mean almost all african cities start with 80% unrest what dont decreases througout the game. I thought you made a secret resouce or like this to cause this unrest. I did not checked the files. It is only my game experience and it happened also with a European city I occupied - next time I will learn its name.

Cities:
The Romans cannot defend Italy. I can sack their cities but I cannot pass by them after it.

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

Your mod is cool.

thanks

Experiences after a looong night:
-I found the number of ship ancillaries too much. Half of the present chance would be better.

this are just vanilla figures

-too many benefactor and man of hour. Half of the present chance would be better.

same here

-The color of Constantine's empire should be something else. I cannot see the unit numbers on their flags and in winter their units are almost invisible on the radar map.

ah, yes, any suggestions?

-The figures are too big on the unit icons (on that 20 little card). I cannot see their numbers.

this is a lot of work to redo this, this wouldn't be first priority

-The descriptions of the Roman offices contains another infos than the codes. It may happen with other factions, I played only W-Romans.

maybe juve hasn't finalized thee ywt, I haven't checked these

-I found the unique buildings as a fantastic idea. Althrough I would not give them such high bonuses. E.g. villa iovis gives +25 law&happiness bonuses in all. I found it too much in the Christian era. I would assign to this building some pagan conversion bonus. E.g. +10 happiness and +10 pagan conversion.

good idea

-I find strange the temples grant xp bonuses to warriors. History shows the religions do not differenciate the effectiveness of armies. I suggest to give lesser bonuses. War gods give generally moral bonuses not xp. I used this bonus table to my mod:

I was also planning to remove thos, (vanilla features) morale bonuses sound good, will apply ur bonuses to the temples

not files. Ok. Maybe I had wrote in riddles. I wanted to mean almost all african cities start with 80% unrest what dont decreases througout the game. I thought you made a secret resouce or like this to cause this unrest. I did not checked the files. It is only my game experience and it happened also with a European city I occupied - next time I will learn its name.

ah, yes, this has been fixed (in internal build) and will be released, soon. I'm just tweaking a few models (just got my PC back) and waiting a bit for Mylae's files

Cities:
The Romans cannot defend Italy. I can sack their cities but I cannot pass by them after it.

ah, I get what you mean.... hmmmm... have to think about this :hmmm:

[Mylae]

@Csatadi
good ideas...

the high bonuses was intended for different purposes... 1- set less "revolutions", less rebels for roman emperors. BUT, once RGyG has modded the chance of rebellion, this motivationrapidly fall. we could set different - lower values. 2- give special building "special" bonuses to make building non-destroyable. time ago, in fact, all unique buildings were destroyable - now only few are, for internal engine solution. This motivation also has fallen.

the discussion could be reopened. good ideas you have.
please, could you post new stuff in the "new buildings" thread?

[Csatádi]

For now:

I do not know it is a feature or mistake but mercenaries are cheaper to hire. E.g.
Roman ballistae 375 to train (even it has more defence)
Mercenary ballistae 600 to hire

Comitatenses 880 to train
Pedites bucelarii 600 to hire
They are roughly equal in strength.

The Theodosius II is a funny name for a captain.
As I see population growth can be only positive. The growth penalty of postribilum, luparia and Christian temple have no effect to population growth.

I would skip necropolis. I think cemeteries have no effect to religion but vice versa.
Were the arenas in the Christian era? My common sense suggests they were closed or used with another function. If used I suggest that many pagan conversion in equal number to their happiness bonuses.

I would change the bonus of splinters of Christ's cross. Historically I would give it influence bonus, because only Christians would respect it. 5% conversion maximum.

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

For now:

I do not know it is a feature or mistake but mercenaries are cheaper to hire. E.g.
Roman ballistae 375 to train (even it has more defence)
Mercenary ballistae 600 to hire

Comitatenses 880 to train
Pedites bucelarii 600 to hire
They are roughly equal in strength..

would be a bug, but I am also trying to make mercenary units more or less standard across the board so should also be reasonably priced for non Romans (who have lower unit costs) yet the barbarian mercs shouldn't be ridiculously cheap

re specific comitatenses and bucelarii unit u will see a few differences in stats but not in weapons/armor (still 880/600 is too much difference)

The Theodosius II is a funny name for a captain.

haha, unfortunately that is also the name of the ERE Emperor , but juve has redone that for next build

As I see population growth can be only positive. The growth penalty of postribilum, luparia and Christian temple have no effect to population growth.

I have read somewhere that cumulative bonuses can only be positive, but individual negative bonuses do work.
so something like: -5(postribulum) + -5(lupanaria) +-5(churches) + 25(farms) =+10

I would skip necropolis. I think cemeteries have no effect to religion but vice versa.

Were the arenas in the Christian era?

arenas will be disabled in next build as no more arena games in 410AD?

My common sense suggests they were closed or used with another function. If used I suggest that many pagan conversion in equal number to their happiness bonuses.

good idea, though

I would change the bonus of splinters of Christ's cross. Historically I would give it influence bonus, because only Christians would respect it. 5% conversion maximum

I have changed those a bit, too. but idea sounds good. there would now be fake splinters & nails (attainable anywhere), just gives conversion and influence bonuses and maybe a few 'true' ones (attainable only in a specific place) gives more bonuses - hey, this is a game

[Csatádi]

The mercenary cost seems to be ok. I missed the fact the bucelarii are fewer than comitatenses.

For now (playing the western Romans yet):
-Lanciarii should have bonus agains cavalry isnt it?

-I suggest to lower base farming level. With high values the reproducation is too high and after some time it is unable to control cities with 7 base farming level.
In my mod I reduced its maximum from 7 to 5.
I suggest this method: new base FL = (present BFL-3)/2+3
If the present value is lesser or equal than 3, dont mod.

-Sicily I dont know it is your map or not but I cannot pass by right side of the vulcan.

-I find war machines too expensive. Onagers are ok, but I tried ballistas and they are not so effective. I dont say to improve them but I suggest a halved upkeep.
E.g. repeating ballista killed 8-30 men, but a cheaper archer unit could 50-100.

-I like the 0 turn system already. Expansion can be very quick with its help. And the 0 turn german warband (or something like this) with 6 armour is awful. I can stand up a full army in 2 turns. Great! This way I really use german auxiliary troops like in the history.

-The 80% unrest is very annoying. I had to kill Avaricum and more Constantine cities because of it. No chance to build up a great empire.

Im waiting your next patch with the stuff I sent to you. I will check next time the traits.