Difference between spartan hoplite types

[Bacchus Dei]

Right now I'm on turn 53 in my spartan campaign and I have some questions about different hoplite types and their stats.

My main question is:
How much different are 4 types of hoplites: Perioikoi, Ekdromoi, Metoikoi and Spartiatai?

First and most obvious difference are their stats. According to unit card in game Ekdromoi are just superior version of Perioikoi and Spartiatai is superior version of Metoikoi.
But honga.net shows another interesting stat: armor piercing. Ekdromoi and Metoikoi have it. Perioikoi and Spartiatai don't. What effect this stat has?

Also, how much different in terms of combat effectiveness are weapon initiative and weapon deadliness? For example Perioikoi and Ekdromoi have 3 initiative and 0 deadliness, while Metoikoi and Spartiatai have 2 initiative and 1 deadliness. What difference it makes?

[JObadiah]

"Deadliness" is AP damage (that is, damage that applies on every "hit", regardless of defender's armor). Initiative is identical to the "First Attack" stat in the melee weapon stats table. It's *extremely* powerful, probably the single most important stat for calculating head-on melee combat results. As for the Armor Piercing ability, I can't rightly say, but I suspect it works like in previous TW titles, by only calculating half the armor value of anything the unit attacks during damage calculations. (What exactly does Shield Piercing do, I'm curious. And "Armor Penetration".)

[blub19]

well for Shield/Armor Penetration I can say that hat honga the total armor value you also see ingame is the sum of an armor vaule and a shield value. So I think what ever Armor Piercing does it works on the Armor value and Shield piercing on the shield value.

[JObadiah]

I wonder if shield piercing applies against the melee defense bonus of shields, the armor bonus, or both.

[Butan]

AFAIK, weapon deadliness is the damage applied at each hit, ignoring the armor value completely.

[icerunner5326]

I was under the impression that deadliness was supposed to beat out initiative over time.

[JObadiah]

I was under the impression that deadliness was supposed to beat out initiative over time.

Point for point, it doesn't. The spear vs sword re-balance they did recently was mainly to give 0-initiative weapons 1-3 points more deadliness. Even so, initiative will win out in the end (frontally), just because of the way the game engine handles it. I've tested this quite a bit, as I plan to make a unit balance overhaul submod after the rosters are more finalized.

[icerunner5326]

I see. Sort of. Actually, not so much. But it sounds like this might explain why I've found sword units to be far less effective than spears (particularly hoplites).

I'd be interested in additional information if you know of any.

[JObadiah]

One exception to spears kicking the crap out of swords is celtic longsword units (and those Roman German-veterans) who have 2 initiative for some reason. Basically, a difference in initiative between two units in combat seems to result in the unit with higher initiative simply making more attacks over time. A difference of 1 initiative between units has a serious effect, but other stats remain relevant. But given a difference of 2 or more points of initiative between the units, deadliness becomes almost irrelevant and the difference will far outweigh even significant differences in attack and melee defense.

Low-initiative, high-deadliness units are only really useful in a flanking role against high-initiative units. Or as a fresh second replacement wave against an exhausted enemy.

[Summary]

One exception to spears kicking the crap out of swords is celtic longsword units (and those Roman German-veterans) who have 2 initiative for some reason. Basically, a difference in initiative between two units in combat seems to result in the unit with higher initiative simply making more attacks over time. A difference of 1 initiative between units has a serious effect, but other stats remain relevant. But given a difference of 2 or more points of initiative between the units, deadliness becomes almost irrelevant and the difference will far outweigh even significant differences in attack and melee defense.

Low-initiative, high-deadliness units are only really useful in a flanking role against high-initiative units. Or as a fresh second replacement wave against an exhausted enemy.

Negative this would mean pikes would obliterate everything. They have 4 initiative and still can't kill much.

[icerunner5326]

That makes sense, I guess. If certainly gives Rome a reason to use auxilia units instead of spamming legionaires.

Thank you for the explanation!

[zonks40]

AP damage is always applied, no matter how great the armor value, the weapon deadliness, if it also works the same as AP, then that's a double whammy, I had thought weapon deadliness was the bonus vs infantry.
Also on the note of Pikes, they have 0 AP, they don't even get a bonus vs horses or Elephants, I'm sure there is some reason they did this, what it is escapes me.

[KAM 2150]

Bonus vs cav was taken out since even charged from the back and with short swords, pikemen still had that anti cav bonus. CA madie it that way, that bonuses are applied to all sides of phalanx.

[FlashHeart07]

Bonus vs cav was taken out since even charged from the back and with short swords, pikemen still had that anti cav bonus. CA madie it that way, that bonuses are applied to all sides of phalanx.

I believe that if you open up DeI with PFM and find the special_abilities_something tables you will find that while in phalanx they get a +10 vs cav and elephants?
Might be mistaken but Im pretty sure I saw it. Unless there is some other parameter that cancels this out?