increase full number of all squad and nerf cavalry mass

[ZealAndFury]

i think this is one of best SS problem

Massive cavalry animation + cavalry mass + no full number infantry squad[even pike squad have 200 number]

= general one men show or few cavalry show => always player make heroic victory too easily


finally, when cavalry vs cavalry charge, before change to second weapone, each cavalry just running animation

i mean, its so funny, cavalry vs cavalry pri weapone only effect when enemies cavalry stoped[close combat or holding ground]

sorry to my bad english skill but i want try talk and telling SS problem as i could

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

no full number infantry squad[even pike squad have 200 number]

The max amount of men in one unit is hardcapped, you cant increase it over that amount(cant remember the max amount with huge unit size off the top of my head).

[MaximusTheGreat]

You have to remember the reason knights and horsemen were so prized back then. A man with a small pointy stick wont stop a full charge from armoured knights very well (its kind of like the polish cavalry charging Nazi tanks in World War II ), so it's only staying true to the ideals stated in the beginning. The best way I found is slow the charge with your own horsemen then mob them with your footsoldiers

[Dekhatres]

You have to remember the reason knights and horsemen were so prized back then. A man with a small pointy stick wont stop a full charge from armoured knights very well (its kind of like the polish cavalry charging Nazi tanks in World War II ), so it's only staying true to the ideals stated in the beginning. The best way I found is slow the charge with your own horsemen then mob them with your footsoldiers

the guy with the stick can stop the "full" charge, it's enought that he maintains ranks, and what do you mean with "full charge" ? is there also partial, half or empty charge ?

the polish cav didnt charge tanks, it was soviet propaganda AFAIK heavy cav is only effective when charging enemy in disarray or that breaks ranks before the impact, i think heavy cav charge should be reduced by 3-5 points atleast to partially counter the knights magic gauntlets that spawn a lance everytime they charge, but i can deal with that, however what i cant tolerate is how knights on horse can have same defence and attack rating as knights on foot, in melee they shouldnt be even nearly as effective as on foot, on horse they should have 0 defense skill and 1 shield(max 2), armor rating can stay the same, attack reduced by 40-60%

[Melooo182]

heavy cav is only effective when charging enemy in disarray or that breaks ranks before the impact

that's not entirely true...it doesnt matter how cohesive a unit is if they don't have appropriate gear, the cavalry will run over them anyway...put a bunch of well formed men at arms but none of them with long spears or pikes...they're doomed at incoming cav charge.

[Dekhatres]

that's not entirely true...it doesnt matter how cohesive a unit is if they don't have appropriate gear, the cavalry will run over them anyway...put a bunch of well formed men at arms but none of them with long spears or pikes...they're doomed at incoming cav charge.

well i guess it's not if you'r a relativist

how about Heavy Spearman, big shield, good armor, long spear, good morale, and Chivalric Knights wipe almost an entire unit of them with 1 charge than they can walk into melee and destroy another unit just by using their swords, with repeated charge and retreat they can probabaly kill much more than that, even men at arms with halberds succumb to heavy cav like pretty much any infantry, idk you but 80 knights killing over 400 professional spearman smells a lot like hollywood bulls*it to me,

[+Marius+]

Heavy cavalry charges used to demolish any infantry line they could find, it was basically a squad of elite warriors whose sole occupation was war since the age of 12-14 against a swarm of lightly armored undertrained, underfed and undersized(nobles were on average much taller and stronger than the rest of the population at those times because of their far superior protein intake) peasants whose bodies barely functioned from all that "13houradayfarmwork" life they had to go through.

Even after the pike formations were set on the battlefield the knights only became heavier with armor and coated their horses in plate which caused them to wreak havoc until mass firearms were introduced mid 16th century.

Just look at this guys biography;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_...neur_de_Bayard

1503 - Battle of Garigliano;

"At the Battle of Garigliano he single-handedly defended the bridge of the Garigliano against 200 Spaniards, an exploit that brought him such renown that Pope Julius II tried unsuccessfully to entice him into his service."

- 1508;

"a breakneck cavalry charge up a mountain slope against a seemingly impregnable barricade, defended by a pike-phalanx of Genoese militia. The Genoese shattered and fled before the furious charge of Bayard and the French gendarmes. Genoa subsequently fell, and Bayard entered the city in triumph behind his king.

That's right, they charged this;
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1...naferremar.jpg

...uphill against a heavily fortified position and obliterated the entire unit barely loosing any men...


Those stories everyone keeps blabbing about of heroes stopping heavy cavalry charges are just boasted tales that happened a couple times in a course of tens of centuries in between which you had a hundred cases of cavalry flatting entire armies to the ground for every one of those "look at me I am an underdog, look at me how I stick it up to the Man" tales of ordinary people facing and defeating their brutal overlords which has become such a popular theme lately.

[Dekhatres]

Heavy cavalry charges used to demolish any infantry line they could find, it was basically a squad of elite warriors whose sole occupation was war since the age of 12-14 against a swarm of lightly armored undertrained, underfed and undersized(nobles were on average much taller and stronger than the rest of the population at those times because of their far superior protein intake) peasants whose bodies barely functioned from all that "13houradayfarmwork" life they had to go through.

Even after the pike formations were set on the battlefield the knights only became heavier with armor and coated their horses in plate which caused them to wreak havoc until mass firearms were introduced mid 16th century.

Just look at this guys biography;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_...neur_de_Bayard

1503 - Battle of Garigliano;

"At the Battle of Garigliano he single-handedly defended the bridge of the Garigliano against 200 Spaniards, an exploit that brought him such renown that Pope Julius II tried unsuccessfully to entice him into his service."

- 1508;

"a breakneck cavalry charge up a mountain slope against a seemingly impregnable barricade, defended by a pike-phalanx of Genoese militia. The Genoese shattered and fled before the furious charge of Bayard and the French gendarmes. Genoa subsequently fell, and Bayard entered the city in triumph behind his king.

That's right, they charged this;
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1...naferremar.jpg

...uphill against a heavily fortified position and obliterated the entire unit barely loosing any men...


Those stories everyone keeps blabbing about of heroes stopping heavy cavalry charges are just boasted tales that happened a couple times in a course of tens of centuries in between which you had a hundred cases of cavalry flatting entire armies to the ground for every one of those "look at me I am an underdog, look at me how I stick it up to the Man" tales of ordinary people facing and defeating their brutal overlords which has become such a popular theme lately.

You know, you remember me a lot the katana fanboys XD, whatever you tell them, they just "i am right you are wrong....LALALALALAL i cant hear you"

[+Marius+]

You know, you remember me a lot the katana fanboys XD, whatever you tell them, they just "i am right you are wrong

Nobody told me anything so far...just people nagging about cavalry being OP...not really stating any facts...or like, i don't know...arguments?

"LALALALALAL i cant hear you"

Precisely what these guys would say to a closing infantry line that had any less than 10:1 ratio of aimed and loaded muskets per horseman:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Gendarmes.jpg


I personally like the overpowered cavalry because it is the only way for the AI to actually do some damage to the human player...and of course the human player always has the option to not exploit the "overpoweredness of da cavs"

[Dekhatres]

I personally like the overpowered cavalry because it is the only way for the AI to actually do some damage to the human player...and of course the human player always has the option to not exploit the "overpoweredness of da cavs"

oh..i was sure you thought the contrary, mentioning that great knight and those battles, well me (and some many other ppl) would like to play with realistic cav (or atleast as close as possible)

Precisely what these guys would say to a closing infantry line that had any less than 10:1 ratio of aimed and loaded muskets per horseman:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Gendarmes.jpg

more or less like the french knights at Agincourt who LALALALED didnt listen to commander (or didnt hear anything) and got all butchered , feel sory for poor Boucicaut

[+Marius+]

more or less like the french knights at Agincourt who LALALALED didnt listen to commander (or didnt hear anything) and got all butchered , feel sory for poor Boucicaut

What da mak are you on about lol?

The French knights did not manage to charge the English lines with their cavalry because of all the mud and arrows turning their horses into corpses...it was basically a huge slow infantry charge uphill through knee deep mud...

...and even then, 150 000 to 300 000 arrows(that's about 50 - 100 arrows per one Frenchman) shot from the "uberpowerful" English longbows did not manage to halt the advance of the incompetent French knights who in fact managed to very slowly march through all that mud uphill only to get massacred by an elite force of 1500 English heavy man-at-arms that were closely packed in two units each four rows deep just waiting for the scattered disorganized Frenchman coming at them in flocks of a couple of men at a time.

There are loads of better examples where heavy cavalry got halted and defeated and the only reason you mentioned that battle is because its the only one that gets constantly shown on those braindead history channels on TV all the time

Im willing to put this in a submod, but 1st need to set what im about to change xD

Most horsearchers are in need of nerfing, not just the Mongols but also the Lithuanians and most others, in fact every single eastern ranged unit is in need of a slight nerf considering their range and damage...I find it rather strange that a swarm of Nubian peasants armed with composite bows can shoot me from across the map with such ease.

They don't even need a land Jihad, just park them at Sicily and you can bombard the entire western world with them apparently

[Dekhatres]

I personally like the overpowered cavalry

you cant just deny it now because the words you used don't leave room for other interpretations

I disagree with with cav defeats being exceptions, AFAIK the inf and cav win and lose ratio are more or less even, but i would appreciate if you brought more info in support of that

[+Marius+]

you cant just deny it now because the words you used don't leave room for other interpretations

Whelp, English isn't my first language so I can always use that card

I disagree with with cav defeats being exceptions

On what grounds and information do you base your opinion which led to to disagree with my statemets?

AFAIK the inf and cav win and lose ratio are more or less even

That is ludicrous.

It is one thing to claim that the current view on cavalry charges is skewed and that cavalry is regarded as far superior than it actually was, but it is another thing to claim that the cavalry was just another millitary unit that can be equally compared to infantry in it's effect on the battlefield...especially during the medieval times.

If there was an equal ratio of cavalry wins and losses against infantry then why da flak would every single society in written history waste such insane amounts of resources just to acquire cavalry in its ranks?!
Why would anyone invest in cavalry considering how much cheaper infantry was?

AFAIK the inf and cav win and lose ratio are more or less even

Again on what research do you base that statement?

There were probably over 100 000 military engagements between cavalry and infantry, it would probably take a large team of post-doc historians a decade to completely and thoroughly analyze all the stats.
To my knowledge this has not been done yet, so I will stick to my opinion considering I just read a 15th century description of the battle of La Brossinière in which:

-the French knights attacked a well fortified and dug in English position of 2500 infantry and 800 longbowmen in a forest and charged under a hale of arrows massacring 1400 men whilst loosing a single knight named John Le Roux

but i would appreciate if you brought more info in support of that

I will be right on that, I just need to spend a week or two analyzing the gigantic amount of data you have presented.
You have left me in sure awe and despair with such a surge of information

[UndrState]

Tell us how you really think Marius

[Basileus of Byzantium]

There's a lot of factors that went into how a cavalry charge went. The armor of the cavalry, the discipline, training, and arms of the footmen, the horses, etc. SS probably can't have the most realistic medieval horse charges but I do think that cavalry, no matter how heavy, just mowed down enemy lines as if they were grass. The charges need to be toned down a little ingame.

[Melooo182]

how about making spear/pikes/stakes much more fearsome to cav? im not too involved on how EDU attributes work but i think this can be done, along with instead of increasing infantry unit sizes...decrease cav unit sizes to say 75-80%?

And from here also include a mongol horse archers nerf, by either lowering accuracy if such thing can be done in the EDU or reduce their base damage.

Im willing to put this in a submod, but 1st need to set what im about to change xD

[Dekhatres]

how about making spear/pikes/stakes much more fearsome to cav? im not too involved on how EDU attributes work but i think this can be done, along with instead of increasing infantry unit sizes...decrease cav unit sizes to say 75-80%?

And from here also include a mongol horse archers nerf, by either lowering accuracy if such thing can be done in the EDU or reduce their base damage.

Im willing to put this in a submod, but 1st need to set what im about to change xD

IMO the size should remain the same, only the stats should be reduced, the melee damage, defense rating and also the charge by a few points

[Navajo Joe]

Guys,

Lets keep this pleasant and nice, lets accept that folk have different views and refrain from any personal attacks either directly or indirectly

Navajo Joe
SS Forum Moderator

[Ardri]

There are a lot more uses to cavalry than just charging infantry. Scouting, communications, and screening main body infantry movements are just a few. They were extremely valuable regardless of the effectiveness of the charge which has been greatly romanticiized. I'm sure the reality was most likely somewhere in the middle of range of debate. Regardless, the mod can't account for every set of circumstances.

And as for outliers, Sergeant York in WWI captured 100+ germans and single handedly broke the enemies line, it doesn't mean it was common place just as 1 knight breaking lines was most likely not common place.

[+Marius+]

There are a lot more uses to cavalry than just charging infantry. Scouting, communications, and screening main body infantry movements are just a few

True, but those were done by either a single horseman or a few of them so it makes little sense taking them into consideration.
Not to mention that those few and even the larger cavalry raiding parties that went in front of the main army always returned to participate in battles when an enemy army was encountered thus again...becoming shock value cavalry.