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Thread: Problems with the naming of Sarmatians as Sauromatae

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  1. #1

    Icon4 Problems with the naming of Sarmatians as Sauromatae

    Ill start with mentioning all respect and appreciation i have for the original EB team and the EB II team.

    I appreciate the amazing work of art you have done,the following is not a criticism per se, its a suggestion or clarification.

    As far as my understanding goes, EB strives to give voice to the different and often negated non-roman civilizations, and they have succeeded at that.

    Now as far as the naming of sarmatians go, i do think its consistent with the goal of the development team that they be named as they chose, and not as they were called by the greeks and romans,

    As far as ancient iranian sources go , there seems to be a name that corresponds to the sarmatians in the avesta, and later in the persian work of shahnameh

    Sairima in Avestan language, and Salm in persian shahnameh

    Thank You
    Last edited by Kiyan_the_Great; April 14, 2014 at 11:28 PM. Reason: making pretty

    ...There's more than one of everything...

  2. #2

    Default Re: Problems with the naming of Sarmatians as Sauromatae

    Sources

    accessible sources:
    http://www.zoroastrian.org/articles/..._in_Avesta.htm
    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/iraj

    Jstor -
    Sources on the Alans: A Critical Compilation by Agustí Aleman
    http://www.jstor.org/stable/20064556


    Not to mention these books

    The Sarmatians (Osprey)

    Cambridge History of Iran by yarshater

    ...There's more than one of everything...

  3. #3
    yuezhi's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Problems with the naming of Sarmatians as Sauromatae

    WIN

    I always thought Sauromatae sounds greek, like what the Bosporans would call them.
    all hail the flying spaghetti monster!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Problems with the naming of Sarmatians as Sauromatae

    I will never understand why is it more historically accurate to write a people's name in Greek than in English. Especially in when they sound identical.

    Of course if you can put the name of the people as they called themselves, then why not ?

  5. #5
    Antonius's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Problems with the naming of Sarmatians as Sauromatae

    @Kiran the Great

    Posts like yours make me regain some faith in humanity: Polite and intelligent language + sources to back it up.

    Thank you! Maybe, one day, we can have nice things!
    It is always easier to fight for one’s principles than to live up to them.
    ~Alfred Adler

  6. #6

    Default Re: Problems with the naming of Sarmatians as Sauromatae

    I forwarded this thread to our Sauromatae historians.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Problems with the naming of Sarmatians as Sauromatae

    Arjos replied the following:

    I don't have an account at TWC, but regarding Salm it is the name of an eponymous mythological/epic founder (already it could be an anachronistic later projection in the past) and must be remembered to be written in a South-Western Iranian language of the 10th century CE. Moreover iirc it had more to do with the hero's character, so it could've been "altered" to fit its perceived meaning at the time of the Shahnameh's composition.

    While the region mentioned in the Avesta, Sairima, has been interpreted in various manners. I remember one being simply a geographical term for a land next to a river. Another that it reflects a simple Avestan plural noun, meaning Sarmatians. This opens the question whether the name was preserved in the oral tradition, making it very old, or if it had more to do with the geo-political map at the time of the Avestan fixation in its earliest written form...

    Nevertheless, one has to bear in mind that nomeclature by foreigners in ancient times, wasn't usually done out of pure fantasy. It was actually an effort by speakers of a different language to render, in their own tongue, what they heard saying from local native speakers. In other cases we have pejorative terms, with a rather transparent etymology, for example Chinese sources calling nomadic tribes something like "annoying bugs" or "rebellious slaves".

    In our case we are also lucky, because in the Northern Pontic region must've lived bilinguists, facilitating commerce, who knew both Greek and a North-Eastern Iranian language of the Scytho-Sarmatian/Sakan family (call it what you will).

    Sauromatae has been interpreted as sau-roma-t-ae, or black-fur-plural-nominative. Bearing the meaning of "The black cloaks". This etymology seems to be corroborated by the Hellenic ethnonym employed by Herodotos to describe a group/tribe living beyond Skythia: the Melanchlainai, or "The black cloaks". It does look like this name had been reported to him by someone fluent in both languages and directly translated it to his Hellenic interlocutor.

    Also this meaning was not lost to the locals themselves, there are inscriptions from Olbia and the later Bosporan Kingdom, reporting of Saudarates, the wearer of black, and Sauromakes, two kings calling themselves, in an Hellenised form, by the same concept. Georgian Chronicles from late Antiquity speak as well of Sawarmag/Saumarg, a king having a Sarmatian mother probably calling himself the black hand/arm. What I'm saying is that the locals themselves and their neighbours used that very word to describe these groupings.
    All of this actually speaks for Hellenic proficiency in transcripting foreign names, Pseudo-Skylax's Syrmatae was probably a pretty good attempt at rendering the native schwa and syncopation.

    If you want to compare more on this, Nart Sagas have preserved a social distinction having to do with wearing black, signaling out that particular character as a violent/crude/warring individual...

    There obviously existed also several tribal endonyms and who knows how many more ethnogenetical self-designations, but historically it appears that during our time, these particular steppe nomads came to distinguish the arms-bearing freemen as black mantles, possibly a garment which signified reaching manhood and social prominence.


  8. #8

    Default Re: Problems with the naming of Sarmatians as Sauromatae

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros View Post
    Arjos replied the following:
    Many thanks to you Moros for relaying the message to the EB team,
    Much thanks to Arjos
    as far as the content of what he has said
    Its obvious that the sarmatians have been very well researched by the team,
    but i still have to reiterate that conforming to sauromatae doesnt particularly sound convincing when we can clearly have the avestan cognate.

    My understanding of his post is that he wants the naming to be closer to how the tribes identified themselves, and how they were called in the avestan language is different than what they called themselves in their own language and that certain bilingual sarmatians would identify themselves as sauromatae, but i wish we could go further. I do understand the restraints on time.

    I do think either way that as far as etymology, it is helpful to start with Avestan Sairima, since its the oldest reference to sarmatians and probably the best place to start the search for a possible alternative to Sauromatae,

    Can you ask arjos would he be open to some additional research on my part in search of a better name?

    ...There's more than one of everything...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Problems with the naming of Sarmatians as Sauromatae

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonius View Post
    @Kiran the Great

    Posts like yours make me regain some faith in humanity: Polite and intelligent language + sources to back it up.

    Thank you! Maybe, one day, we can have nice things!
    Thank you for the kind words antonius!

    ...There's more than one of everything...

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