[Patch 12-β] Siege AI tests and reviews

[Dago Red]

i think they could easily cure this by giving every unit ability to "bash" the gate, even create the animation where they would just use some tree stump as an improvised ram.. that was actually what was used to break the gate, not torches..

I thought about something like this too, but I don't see them going with such an approach since they already have their magic failsafe.

Instead, if they just used the previous siege system it would improve vastly... as was pointed out ad naseum in the siege thread before -- the AI would not even initiate attack unless/until it had the proper equipment. And once all equipment was destroyed and/or any units capable of breaking in were killed (those armed with grapples & ropes in empire) the AI immediately retreated.

It's more realistic, provides more dynamic gameplay, and is more satisfying in the end. It also worked well for over a decade. Catering to some crowd who has to have everything happen instantly and always have a game event result in the biggest change/climax possible is no recipe for a good game. We don't need one side to "win" every battle. Most days during a siege are not won by anyone, one or both sides simply retire for the day/season and regroup.

The AI must be mandated to not initiate an attack until it has laid siege for the proper time frame to build rams, towers, or hopefully in the future to sap the walls (longest siege time, but best result).

CA created a problem they never needed to solve. AI never had magic way in before, it simply prepared better.

[Aenima]

CA created a problem they never needed to solve

I found that time and time again the AI would pull back if and when their siege equipment were destroyed and they no longer had a way into the settlement. The army retreated on the map, intact, and that was that. Sieges were fun, worked well (not perfectly, ie path-finding on walls, but still enjoyable) and the idea that the AI would just be able to burn down gates was laughable back then. It was a sad moment when I played my first siege battle and saw it happening.

A problem that never needed solving is exactly what CA's "torch solution" is. I still don't understand what made them even want to add that feature in.

[AngryTitusPullo]

i think they could easily cure this by giving every unit ability to "bash" the gate, even create the animation where they would just use some tree stump as an improvised ram.. that was actually what was used to break the gate, not torches.. and no need to make it as an equipment.. just make so unit walks to the gate, improvised ram/stump appears, and they ram the gate with it...

Shall we revert back to stone throwing ?

[JaM]

Shall we revert back to stone throwing ?

i'll keep the fire javelins, just will increase fire resistance of gates up. way up..

[wulfgar610]

I like the torches. Removing them would spoil my day!

[General George S. Patton]

Here is my review of the siege AI for beta patch 12.

Most notable patch notes for AI are
-AI will siege towns longer and build equipment
-Fixed units milling around bottom of siege equipment

Full patch notes here, and they seem promising

Here is the full review



If above doesn't work try this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnZv...ature=youtu.be

[Da11en47]

The AI actually looked half way decent.

I remember in Medieval 2, the AI would knock down a few sections before storming in. I see that they only took out 1 spot in this siege and then crammed their way through, not too smart.

Thanks for sharing.

[Heathen Storm]

Wow, it's looking much, MUCH better than patch 11 already, and it's only in beta. Great news

[stevehoos]

Go try a siege scene at Petra /large map/ AI attackers, then tell me how well it works. The AI does not even use siege equipment, it's a completely broken scene. One 10 minute video tells me nothing at all.

[General George S. Patton]

The AI actually looked half way decent.

I remember in Medieval 2, the AI would knock down a few sections before storming in. I see that they only took out 1 spot in this siege and then crammed their way through, not too smart.

Thanks for sharing.

Ya, it seems the AI works, but is still dumb xD

there is already a thread
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ts-and-reviews

Thought it was only for his reviews/videos

Wow, it's looking much, MUCH better than patch 11 already, and it's only in beta. Great news

Ya, looks promising

Go try a siege scene at Petra /large map/ AI attackers, then tell me how well it works. The AI does not even use siege equipment, it's a completely broken scene. One 10 minute video tells me nothing at all.

So far everything I have seen shows it at least works.

[baptistus]

I suppose it is a joke...... I suppose.

[baptistus]

You can check my videos and see there is still a lot of bugs.
You made a good video, but it is not really a test or a review. You give too much siege equipments to the ai (they never have all these siege equipments on siege battle during the campaign for example ), so you can not test if the ai works well, if the AI reuse siege equipments, use the archers to help the siege equipment ect... ect... It is my opinion.

After several tests:
-AI don't reuse the tower/ladder and prefer to use the torches
-AI don't know how to attack with two battlerams two different gates (in rome 1 the AI know how to do it and make two attacks at two different places)
-if you kill the unit of the battleram, there is a lot of bugs (ram and the rest of the army)
-archers doesn't help the siege equipment during the movement to the walls, and sometimes stay out of range during the assault (in rome 1, archers help the siege equipments)
And I am sure we can find more problems with more tests (but I am a little boring to test the AI after each patch, make report, and see the same problems in the next patch ...)

So yes ladders and towers are less buggy. But sincerly it is clearly not enough...

[Pheidippides]

I'd love to see Thanksgiving at the AI's house. Usually it's SAI that screws over CAI, but in my Macedon patch 12 campaign it was the opposite.

Playing on VH. Pyrrhus attacks Pella with a couple units of hoplites/pikes, his Royal Guard, a couple units of javelins, and elephants. There's also a fleet of javelin ships and one Thureos Spear admiral's ship. I have four mob, three militia hoplites, and a couple of javelins/slingers (all my armies were in the field). My impressions:

1) CAI is still attacking from the sea rather than blockading and coming from land. Maybe they do this only when the land army is within reinforcement range but can't reach the city, but it's a huge handicap. It takes too many casualties without ladders. They need to prioritize sieges over immediate attacks.
2) The SAI is still attacking head on with the general's ship when there are not enough landing slots to land other units. I have three landing slots behind the walls. I use two on my javelin ships. The AI fleet sails its general right into the last slot, without support, to get slaughtered.
3) Pyrrhus's troops rush into the fight from the side of the map, piecemeal. The elephants are the first to reach the walls, run right into the murder hole, and get killed instantly.
4) The AI did sneak a couple of units around to try and burn a different gate, which I didn't realize until a few minutes in. I didn't have enough slingers to cover both gates. Well done.
5) Torches are still buggy. Three units of Epirot pikes were stuck at the gate and picked apart by my slingers.
6) I run out of ammo having killed all the AI hoplites, leaving only javelins at the west gate and a Hellenic Royal Guard at the northern one. My towers rout the javelins, so I lead all my missile troops and mob out of that gate to try and surround the HRG when it finally burns the north gate. When my troops leave the safety of the city, the AI stops burning the gate and moves to defend itself against my flanking troops. Smart move, but all I have to do is keep running my troops back in and out of the city. The AI will be paralyzed and killed by the towers.
7) Finally the HRG burns the gates. I have three units of militia hoplites behind the gate. The HRG unit gets stuck in front of the gate for a minute, gets whittled down to less than half strength, and then routs immediately when I send my mob charging out of the gate (being hit with flaming arrows for 5 minutes probably had something to do with that).

All in all this was a very winnable battle for the AI, even without the ladders. But its making a lot of the same mistakes it was making several patches ago.

[JaM]

True, personally i would prefer more realistic approach to sieges, with Attacker able to launch several attacks, during which he could just simply attempting to break through several layers of defense.. and even if he failed, attacker should have ability to continue the siege if he still has combat ready troops left. In reality, several attacks were usually made against the wall, and many of them were unsuccessful. yet, usually such army didn't abandoned the siege, unless badly damaged or knowing reinforcing army is coming...

before Rome 2 release i was hoping they would create system like this.. they even mentioned that cities will be divided into several districts... yet, final result is just huge disappointment and missed opportunity doing something really great.

[JaM]

it is because they are obsessed at kicking out open doors.. it seems like they completely thrown away everything they did in previous games and tried to come with new solutions which were further streamlined..

[JaM]

It is very sad, but entire campaign experience in Rome 2 is missing a lot of thought.. there is no tactical aspect whatsoever applied. Even things like zone of control now have no impact. they just prevent you to enter them (but only player, AI can walk through as it wants...) Where are the times when attempt to enter zone controlled by enemy army triggered a battle, and if that army was not seen before entering it triggered an ambush? why they removed it and replaced by stances that just cause another level of huge problem to everybody, especially AI?

Before Rome 2 was released, i hoped for some more sophistication for campaign army movement, deployment of scouts, ability to outsmart enemy on map, etc.. instead, we got system that is the worst of all TW games they did so far.. even old MTW has more strategical campaign play, and there we just had armies represented by stones...

[dvk901]

..................... "streamlined for the living room gamer."

Guess the living room gamers got the best of it.

[Taskeen]

I like the music at the middle half of the first test video.

It beautifully represents the failure and tragedy of the siege AI in this engine.

Mind-blowing it is still half-arsed after 12 patches when I can load up Rome: TW and the AI uses all the siege equipment perfectly, and reuses it. Similarily in M:TW the AI, if they have lots of forces, make sure they have total control of one section of a castle, then regroup their forces, take down ladders, and move them into an inner wall. In those games I am actually afraid of the AI's excellent siege ability.

[baptistus]

I think we will NEVER have a siege AI as good as in Rome 1/medieval 2, even if the siege AI was not perfect in these two games.
It needs to much works, and it is a problem with the Engine itself ect...
And yes it is a shame for CA to made an AI which can not do what the AI did 10 years later ...they are proud of their E3 awards but they can not be proud of the siege AI for sure .

[14182]

If CA can't evolve siege battle to a new level or make the siege equipments reusable after 7 months, then just remove the torches and give me back the grapples & ropes.

I could rather accept some soldiers climbing up the wall like ninja than burning down metal gate by torches.
With the ropes at least I could see some good fights on the wall like in Empire & Napoleon, but now there are only tons of dead bodies killed by the oil and pikes at the gate.