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Thread: Suggestions & Questions

  1. #41

    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    1) How are you going to do the dragons? Will they work like armoured elephants in battle? I noticed you have a Brood of Glaurung faction. Does that mean dragons are going to be the generals for that faction?
    How the Dragons will operate is still under discussion. We're trying to give them the ability of spitting flames, but they'll also be capable of crashing through the lines of enemies. In regards to the generals, at least Glaurung is going to be one, the faction leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    2) What's the time frame for the mod? Is it from 455 FA to 590 FA with regular two-turns per year? That would give you 270 turns. 455 FA is when Morgoth breaks the Siege of Angband in Dagor Bragollach (Battle of Sudden Flame). That's a major turning point and when the War of the Jewels becomes really intense. Plus all the factions would exist.
    The mod starts at 450 FA and will be 4 turns per year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    3) Do the evil factions have generals without family trees? I think they shouldn't have family trees and that the factions should function like the Teutonic Order faction does in Medieval II Kingdoms. Is that possible to do on the Rome TW engine?
    I'm not certain about this, Milner could answer better than me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Oh, and you can use the music of Howard Shore if you want btw. The Third Age Total War mod does. But if you come up with a whole new soundtrack for the game, that would be really cool too.
    I don't think TATW uses Howard Shore work, at least when I played it didn't. LotRTW, on the other hand uses it. It's kind of a gamble, really, one that we won't make. We never planed to use the LotR soundtrack, anyway, hopefully, we'll have a custom soundtrack.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor
    How the Dragons will operate is still under discussion. We're trying to give them the ability of spitting flames, but they'll also be capable of crashing through the lines of enemies. In regards to the generals, at least Glaurung is going to be one, the faction leader.
    Maybe you could look through the files for the Greek Firethrowers in the Crusades Campaign in Med. II TW Kingdoms to see how they did it. That would be so awesome if you could make dragons shoot jets of flame as a missile weapon.

    I figured Glaurung would be the faction leader of Brood of Glaurung. I was just wondering about the other generals and how dragons overall would be portrayed. Also, I'm wondering about bodyguards. What would dragon bodyguards be? Smaller dragons?

    The Balrogs should have bodyguards of Olog-hai (battle-trolls) as I saw that mentioned in the Silmarillion. I believe it was Húrin who slays the battle-troll bodyguard of Gothmog. I was very glad when I read that you were making Balrogs the generals of Morgoth's/Angband faction. Although, Morgoth himself should have a bodyguard of Balrogs since that is what he ensnared those maiar for. Is it possible for generals to have different types of bodyguard when in the same faction on the Rome TW engine? I know it's possible for Med. II TW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor
    The mod starts at 450 FA and will be 4 turns per year.
    That means Angband would be under "siege" at this time. How is that going to be portrayed in the game?

    Four turns per year?! This will be a very long game then with 540 turns. I don't know about you, but the most I play in one game is about 300 turns. I read that you were going to have the Host of Valinor arrive in a scripted event. If that's true then that won't happen till turn 360. By then I will have conquered all of Beleriand and have numerous unstoppable armies so that this event is like "hmph, big deal."

    Or will you have things in the game to slow down expansion like Third Age TW does? Like garrison scripts and strengthen weakened factions scripts?

    Thank you for your answers.

    Cheers! Cats

  3. #43

    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Maybe you could look through the files for the Greek Firethrowers in the Crusades Campaign in Med. II TW Kingdoms to see how they did it. That would be so awesome if you could make dragons shoot jets of flame as a missile weapon.

    That's the idea .

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    I figured Glaurung would be the faction leader of Brood of Glaurung. I was just wondering about the other generals and how dragons overall would be portrayed. Also, I'm wondering about bodyguards. What would dragon bodyguards be? Smaller dragons? The Balrogs should have bodyguards of Olog-hai (battle-trolls) as I saw that mentioned in the Silmarillion. I believe it was Húrin who slays the battle-troll bodyguard of Gothmog. I was very glad when I read that you were making Balrogs the generals of Morgoth's/Angband faction. Although, Morgoth himself should have a bodyguard of Balrogs since that is what he ensnared those maiar for. Is it possible for generals to have different types of bodyguard when in the same faction on the Rome TW engine? I know it's possible for Med. II TW.
    Yes, it's possible to have different bodyguards. Glaurung's bodyguards will be lesser dragons. Morgoth's bodyguards is still under discussion, but certainly won't be Balrogs, since the all 7 Balrogs will be generals. Balrog's will have trolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    That means Angband would be under "siege" at this time. How is that going to be portrayed in the game?
    A great number of armies for both sides.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Four turns per year?! This will be a very long game then with 540 turns. I don't know about you, but the most I play in one game is about 300 turns. I read that you were going to have the Host of Valinor arrive in a scripted event. If that's true then that won't happen till turn 360. By then I will have conquered all of Beleriand and have numerous unstoppable armies so that this event is like "hmph, big deal."
    The War of the Wrath script it's organic, depends on the success of the evil factions in-game. So, you won't need to wait 500 turns as Angband to fight the Valar, if you're doing well enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Or will you have things in the game to slow down expansion like Third Age TW does? Like garrison scripts and strengthen weakened factions scripts?
    Yes. Milner created alot of slowdown mechanics, even more than TATW, I believe.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Oh, and you can use the music of Howard Shore if you want btw. The Third Age Total War mod does. But if you come up with a whole new soundtrack for the game, that would be really cool too.
    Third Age has kind of bad history regarding using stuff without permission. And honestly, I really don't think the mod team could get permission to use Shore's music.
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor
    Yes, it's possible to have different bodyguards. Glaurung's bodyguards will be lesser dragons. Morgoth's bodyguards is still under discussion, but certainly won't be Balrogs, since the all 7 Balrogs will be generals. Balrog's will have trolls.
    Great! Sounds good, except... what do you mean seven Balrogs? It is written that Morgoth had a host of them at his command. A host in Tolkien writing usually means an army, and armies usually have hundreds or thousands of members. Also, I tend to have more than seven generals during a campaign game. If you script it so there are only seven balrog generals, what other generals will Angband have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor
    A great number of armies for both sides.
    Hmm... so no build-up? It seems you'll immediately start huge battles with top tier troops on turn 1. I, personally, don't really like that idea. The game could be won too early on by winning heroic victories that cripple the enemy, like taking Angband by turn 5 for example.

    If the game really does begin before 455 FA, where are the evil factions going to be? It was only after Dagor Bragollach that Sauron and Glaurung had their own territories. Sauron's base, Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves), actually was established in 455 FA. Before that year they were all holed up in Angband.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor
    The War of the Wrath script is organic, depends on the success of the evil factions in-game. So, you won't need to wait 500 turns as Angband to fight the Valar, if you're doing well enough.
    Cool! And that actually makes sense. It was only when Morgoth conquered all of Beleriand that the Valar were moved to action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor
    Yes. Milner created a lot of slowdown mechanics, even more than TATW, I believe.
    Awesome! What exactly are they, if I may ask?

    Cheers! Cats

  6. #46

    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Great! Sounds good, except... what do you mean seven Balrogs? It is written that Morgoth had a host of them at his command. A host in Tolkien writing usually means an army, and armies usually have hundreds or thousands of members. Also, I tend to have more than seven generals during a campaign game. If you script it so there are only seven balrog generals, what other generals will Angband have?
    Tolkien struggled with the correct number of Balrogs through is life. An early conception, presented in the Fall of Gondolin writings and partly in the Silmarillion, there were many Balrogs but they were much less powerful than Durin's Bane, for example, and were not Maiar, constituted a race of themselves. Tolkien, when started to consider them powerful Maiar, eventually came to the conclusion that there couldn't have been more than 7 Balrogs. We're going with the latest concept.
    The other generals will probably be Boldogs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Hmm... so no build-up? It seems you'll immediately start huge battles with top tier troops on turn 1. I, personally, don't really like that idea. The game could be won too early on by winning heroic victories that cripple the enemy, like taking Angband by turn 5 for example.
    Well, we didn't discussed this deeply, but imagine, Angband and the other evil factions will start with, say three stacks each, while the Noldor kingdoms would start with one army each, next to the border. I wouldn't advise you to try to take Angband, unless you want to fight with Melkor, Sauron, Glaurung and another evil beasts at the beginning (you'll probably lose ).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    If the game really does begin before 455 FA, where are the evil factions going to be? It was only after Dagor Bragollach that Sauron and Glaurung had their own territories. Sauron's base, Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves), actually was established in 455 FA. Before that year they were all holed up in Angband.
    Yep, you're right. They'll all have to start around Angband.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Cool! And that actually makes sense. It was only when Morgoth conquered all of Beleriand that the Valar were moved to action.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Awesome! What exactly are they, if I may ask?
    Well, I'll just post here what Milner did for the main script:
    1-Counters
    2-Scripted diplomacy
    3-Rewards by crushing battles
    4-Penalties by crushing battles
    5-Rewards when takes a city
    6-Penalties when lose a city
    7-AI money help
    8-Anti-expansion
    9-Orcish population never dies
    10-Welcome and help message
    11-4 turns per year
    12-Morgoth sacking cities
    13-Orc's anihilation
    14-Morgoth sacking cities
    15-Victory conditions' big rewards
    16-Victory conditions' lesser rewards
    17-Force diplomacy
    18-Dead factions
    19-Laiquendi refoircements to allies realms
    20-Doriathrim refoircements to allies realms
    21-Naugrim support troops in Nargothrond
    22-Naugrim support troops to Feanorians
    23-Sons of Ungoliant support troops to Evil factions
    24-Falathrim support troops in some coast cities

    You can also expect Garrison scripts on the most important settlements.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Great! Sounds good, except... what do you mean seven Balrogs? It is written that Morgoth had a host of them at his command. A host in Tolkien writing usually means an army, and armies usually have hundreds or thousands of members. Also, I tend to have more than seven generals during a campaign game. If you script it so there are only seven balrog generals, what other generals will Angband have?
    Actually, in his later writings, Tolkien stated that there were no more than seven balrogs.
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor
    Tolkien struggled with the correct number of Balrogs throughout his life. An early conception, presented in the Fall of Gondolin writings and partly in the Silmarillion, there were many Balrogs but they were much less powerful than Durin's Bane, for example, and were not Maiar, but constituted a race of themselves. Tolkien, when starting to consider them powerful Maiar, eventually came to the conclusion that there couldn't have been more than 7 Balrogs. We're going with the latest concept.
    The other generals will probably be Boldogs.
    Well, how about you combine a little bit of both? Have Morgoth's bodyguard be the weak balrogs that are their own race and have the seven Balrog generals be the maiar? I mean, you'll have the same problem with werewolves too then. Are they their own race, or are they maiar inhabiting wolf bodies? Nobody is certain, but I personally believe in both versions.

    Yes, Boldogs (Orc Chieftains) could also work as generals. Should of realized that. D'oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor
    Angband and the other evil factions will start with, say three stacks each, while the Noldor kingdoms would start with one army each, next to the border.
    Oh wait... are you saying the evil factions will have the horde ability from Barbarian Invasion? That's actually really cool and makes sense.

    If I remember right, when Etna blows in Rome TW it damages buildings and kills nearby troops. Is it possible for the three volcanoes of Thangorodrim to automatically blow when enemy armies besiege Angband while the Angband faction controls it? Can that be scripted? I think an enemy army should lose about a third of its soldiers, creating an incentive to bring lots of soldiers to have any hope of victory. If the game begins before 455 FA then I really want to recreate the Battle of Sudden Flame.

    I read that to mimic the "hidden" Kingdom of Gondolin that you would have a fort placed at the mountain pass with a large garrison in it. Will the fort be a permanent stone fort like the ones in the Britannia Campaign in Med. II Kingdoms? Because in vanilla Rome TW when the garrison moves and stays out, the fort is deleted. Plus defending those vanilla Rome TW wooden palisade camps is a joke. Defending those stone forts in Kingdoms is super easy, giving the Angband player an incentive to throw everything he's got (dragons, balrogs, trolls, giant spiders, etc.) to break into Gondolin.

    Cheers! Cats

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post

    Well, how about you combine a little bit of both? Have Morgoth's bodyguard be the weak balrogs that are their own race and have the seven Balrog generals be the maiar ? I mean, you'll have the same problem with werewolves too then. Are they their own race, or are they maiar inhabiting wolf bodies ? Nobody is certain, but I personally believe in both versions.
    Well, for Balrogs, we are sure that they all are Maiar : I can imagine giant wolves to be a natural species but giant burning demons ? Let's be serious ! However weaker Balrogs is a possibility we can't totally exclude. After all Tolkien rewrote constantly about Balrogs, for example he said he one of his latest writings that they were mute even though the Balrog in the Lord of the Rings is screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    Oh wait... are you saying the evil factions will have the horde ability from Barbarian Invasion? That's actually really cool and makes sense.
    A scripter will answer later but I believe it is not possible to include that BI feature, I would have liked it to work for the Easterlings though or when a faction is destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    If I remember right, when Etna blows in Rome TW it damages buildings and kills nearby troops. Is it possible for the three volcanoes of Thangorodrim to automatically blow when enemy armies besiege Angband while the Angband faction controls it? Can that be scripted? I think an enemy army should lose about a third of its soldiers, creating an incentive to bring lots of soldiers to have any hope of victory. If the game begins before 455 FA then I really want to recreate the Battle of Sudden Flame.
    That is an excellent idea and a really good way to represent the battle of the Sudden Flame, even though it works defensively and not offensively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Cats View Post
    I read that to mimic the "hidden" Kingdom of Gondolin that you would have a fort placed at the mountain pass with a large garrison in it. Will the fort be a permanent stone fort like the ones in the Britannia Campaign in Med. II Kingdoms ? Because in vanilla Rome TW when the garrison moves and stays out, the fort is deleted. Plus defending those vanilla Rome TW wooden palisade camps is a joke. Defending those stone forts in Kingdoms is super easy, giving the Angband player an incentive to throw everything he's got (dragons, balrogs, trolls, giant spiders, etc.) to break into Gondolin.
    The forts will be permanent stone forts.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Peredhel View Post
    Well, for Balrogs, we are sure that they all are Maiar : I can imagine giant wolves to be a natural species but giant burning demons ? Let's be serious ! However weaker Balrogs is a possibility we can't totally exclude. After all Tolkien rewrote constantly about Balrogs, for example he said he one of his latest writings that they were mute even though the Balrog in the Lord of the Rings is screaming.
    I think we call that forgetting what he wrote and making a mistake.
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  11. #51

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    In my opinion, we should always go with the latest writings and concepts, as they are, most probably, the ones that approach more Tolkien's ideas and intentions.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor View Post
    In my opinion, we should always go with the latest writings and concepts, as they are, most probably, the ones that approach more Tolkien's ideas and intentions.
    I prefer going with what makes for a better story. I didn't really like some of Tolkien's later ideas. (The latest draft about Galadriel and Celeborn, the whole Round World thing..)
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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    I prefer going with what makes for a better story. I didn't really like some of Tolkien's later ideas. (The latest draft about Galadriel and Celeborn, the whole Round World thing..)
    Well, that doesn't really translates to anything, modwise .

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor View Post
    Well, that doesn't really translates to anything, modwise .
    The better story, or his later ideas?
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  15. #55

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    The later ideas you mentioned it.

  16. #56

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    What Tolkien wrote (in June 1958), in a criticism of a proposed film treatment of LotR about the Balrog of Moria is:
    "20. The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him."
    Letter 210


    The Balrog did make a vocal sound at its fall however:

    "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished."
    LotR, FotR

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    What Tolkien wrote (in June 1958), in a criticism of a proposed film treatment of LotR about the Balrog of Moria is:
    "20. The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him."
    Letter 210


    The Balrog did make a vocal sound at its fall however:

    "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished."
    LotR, FotR
    Exactly. I think that going with what the text says is probably the better option. Although mute Balrogs are more convenient as they don't need voice actors
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  18. #58

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    A totally silent Balrog is more intimidating than a screaming one, in my opinion.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Suggestions & Questions

    Also, Balrogs lead armies. They can't lead armies very well if they can't talk. Can you imagine?

    Quote Originally Posted by History of Middle-earth, Volume 45 'Tolkien's other box of notes'. Myths Remain Silent
    Hapless Orc #11390:"What are your orders, Lord Gothmog?"

    Gothmog remains silent.

    Hapless Orc: "Boss, those angry Noldor are charging at us. What do we do?"

    Gothmog does not break his silence.

    Hapless Orc:"Your Orcs are wavering!"

    Gothmog is still silent.
    Last edited by Feanaro Curufinwe; August 27, 2014 at 09:06 PM.
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  20. #60

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    Haha, true. But now I wonder which accent would be most suited to a Balrog, if we give them voices in the mod, I mean. A scottish accent would be my personal choice, I reckon.

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