Some unrelated recent military procurment storiess since I am getting bored of Ukraine

[Pielstick]

Not really. The only part of Africa with money to spend on shiny new jet fighters is a few select countries in North Africa, and they've all made recent purchases. The rest of Africa has neither the money nor the infrastructure to support modern fighters. Even South Africa has pretty much grounded its Gripen fleet for lack of funding.

[I WUB PUGS]

As I said I'm not buying the Thompson piece at face vale but neither do I trust Axe for example and older piece by a good reporter but one tends to go out of his way to dislike some things the V-22 for example. In any case it seems doubtful any first generation aircraft would be cheap. From what I read Israel is planning buy some which sort of say the Marines are just not insane.

Plus Both pro and con sides seem to cherry pick issues and success. Even your own example the NH90 type helicopter is not was is beeing replaced as I understand but the CH-47 wich has had it own record of crashes in Iraq and A-Stan killing quite a number of people.

You mean CH-46 right?

I never got where people, actually it became a Marine thing to say that the Osprey was replacing the Phrog. Its utter crap. When they first started pushing the plan it was supposed to replace not only the incredibly CH-46 but also the CH-53 thus ending the life of the US military's last heavy helicopter.

Don't believe me? Some figures:

Max troop loads:
CH-46 = 24
CH-53 = 37 (with gear in the centerline), 55 floor loaded
MV-22 = 24 (with gear in the centerline), 32 floor loaded..... have fun with that, if you've been in one as I have, you know to strap in.

Cargo weight:
CH-46 = 5000 lbs
CH-53 = 20000 lbs
MV-22 = 30000 lbs

Speed:
MH-46 = 144 knots
CH-53 = 179 knots
MV-22 = 275 knots

Obviously the MV-22 appears to be some sort of mutant speed lifter that carries the same number of troops as the MH-46. Cool story, it was meant to replace both because the MH-46 is crap and the CH-53 is slower, much slower. The theory was that in 3 trips, the Osprey could deliver what the CH-53 could do in two. Check the math, that works out right? Osprey was supposed to be newer (obviously), more modern, multirole, all the buzzwords. But it still can't lift 30000 lbs which outside of

Somehow this myth about the Osprey replacing the Phrog has gotten around. Probably because the Corps isn't getting rid of the 53's anymore, just the Deltas and eventually the Echos, since they're buying NEW CH-53K's.

The Osprey is basically just as capable (as it was designed mind you) as the CH-53 outside of performing the following...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Notice this last one has rotors and engines removed and its a Navy CH-53 lifting what looks like a CH-53D. The CH-53 is too heavy to be lifted by another helicopter... hence stripping.

Whatever. Don't even know where I'm going with this position wise. Used to hate the thing since it was dangerous. But its teethed well in Iraq a bit and done a fabulous job in Afghanistan. I still don't like riding in them, but I'd take them over a CH-53D any day.......probably because the last one I was on nearly fell out of the sky and then dropped dead at the LZ at Delaram. Scary.

[Condottiere 40K]

Transforming the B-52 Into a Maritime Patrol Plane

Bomber gets radar pod for open-ocean search





The U.S. Air Force’s B-52 bomber is not a natural sea hunter. Boeing designed the huge, eight-engine warplane in the 1940s for atomic raids against Soviet cities.
But today the venerable B-52 has become a powerful maritime patrol and strike plane, thanks to a long history of upgrades culminating in the recent addition of an unassuming-looking underwing pod containing a high-tech search radar.
Starting in April, the Air Force fitted an AN/ASQ-236 Dragon’s Eye pod, built by Northrop Grumman, to a B-52H from the 93rd Bomb Squadron at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana.
Dragon’s Eye contains an advanced electronically-scanned array radar, or AESA. The Air Force first deployed the pod-radar combo on F-15Es in 2009 to help the fighter-bombers spot targets in Afghanistan.


​
Airmen and contractors fit a Dragon’s Eye pod to a B-52 in Louisiana in April. Air Force photo
Such electronically-scanned sensors have essentially no moving parts. Clusters of tiny emitters each send out their own radar beams, making the overall system better and more reliable than traditional, mechanical radars.
Specifically, the Dragon’s Eye sensor is a synthetic aperture radar, which can create high-resolution snapshots of terrain based on radar returns. SAR is great for quickly scanning vast areas in search of, for instance, man-made objects on a natural surface.
For that reason, the Dragon’s Eye AESA SAR is an effective sea-search sensor. And the dependable B-52 with its 35 tons of fuel and heavy payload is the perfect plane to carry the radar over the ocean.
A bomber crew could use the SAR to scan the ocean and narrow down areas for further investigation. Flying lower, a B-52 could survey the waters in greater detail with an underslung Litening infrared targeting pod. In 2007, B-52 crews developed tactics for inspecting ships with the Litening.
“The Dragon’s Eye pod paired with the B-52 leverages the existing tremendous range, loiter time and communication capabilities of the B-52 airframe in support of our maritime domain awareness mission,” said Col. Danny Wolf from Pacific Air Forces.
In other words, the B-52 is now a kick-ass maritime patrol plane. One that can also deliver more than 30 tons of weapons. Perfect for—oh, I don’t know—a future conflict with an increasingly heavily-armed China over the disputed China Seas.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/tra...e-1003488b345a

[conon394]

Gotta Love the B-52 - everyone from the designers to the last man or women on the line deserves a presidential lawn ceremony or something. Considering how many acquisition programs go all bloat or fail of get cancelled its truly amazing that the air-force can still use planes that for front line duty and expects keep doing so till 2049 - that a almost a 100 years from inception to retirement.

[conon394]

You mean CH-46 right?

I likely did - I was typing from memory from a couple different out right 'its a disaster type' analysis and the last one was all over the map about what the V-22 was supposed to replace and/or what was a better option.

What can't understand is why it was procured with such a lack of weapons options.

In any case any thoughts on Bell's second generation option that the army is looking into: http://bellv280.com/

Note since no prototype exists yet as far I can tell the web site is pure photoshop

[Condottiere 40K]

We’ve Spotted Japan’s New Stealth Fighter

ATD-X makes its first appearance as Tokyo’s warplane plans advance





by THOMAS NEWDICK
Japan is working on a homegrown stealth fighter. It’s called the ATD-X. And we apparently just got our first glimpse of the prototype.
In mid-June, a blurry photo appeared on a Chinese Internet forum, purporting to depict the first ATD-X demonstrator aircraft outside a hangar in Tokyo.
The Japanese government hopes to develop the ATD-X into the frontline F-3 fighter to replace its Boeing F-15Js. Tokyo is also procuring the American-made F-35A Lightning II stealth fighter as a replacement for older F-4EJ Phantom IIs.

...


According to the government’s plan, full-scale development of the F-3 should begin in 2016 or 2017, and a first prototype could take to the air in 2024 or ’25. Should Tokyo appropriate adequate funding, the F-3 could enter production sometime around 2027.
Whatever the F-3 ends up looking like, Japan’s continued commitment to the program shows just how seriously it takes air superiority and manned fighters. While it’s unclear exactly how many F-3s the island nation might procure, the new fighter will likely supplant the Mitsubishi F-2 strike fighter in the first half of the 2030s before replacing the F-15 in the air superiority role.
The fact that Washington wouldn’t permit Japan a license to import the F-22 might just give Tokyo a useful head-start when it comes to designing the next line of fighters, the successors to the F-22 and F-35. Some analysts have even recommended that the U.S. join Japan in developing a common sixth-generation fighter, to enter service around 2030.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/wev...r-3131fa53fb8e


I like the odds that the Japanese will deploy their stealth fighter model before the Chinese, and quite probably, way before the Indians and Russians.

[I WUB PUGS]

Meh, Conon, they can put anything from a M2, Mk19 or a Minigun on them. The ones I rode in all had 240's, but its not like the mount is ONLY for medium machine guns. Probably just that the Corps has a bunch of 240s. The CH-53s I rode in all had 3 x M2. I'm not sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the USAF has miniguns on them since they've got all that money.

[hellheaven1987]

I like the odds that the Japanese will deploy their stealth fighter model before the Chinese, and quite probably, way before the Indians and Russians.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[conon394]

Nobody ever seems to like Light Tanks...

So It seems the Pentagon as fallen out of love with the Stryker MGS.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/...strykermgs.pdf
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the...s-d5e6d22bdfcc

but on the ground apparently it is useful if hot...

http://www.armytimes.com/article/200...ings-heat-Iraq

The ley point is that it is what it is and it not an MBT. It does not break roads and bridges, and it is meets weight requirement to make C-130 transport effective. I have seen nothing really persuasive to say why it cannot get the double v under hull upgrade that the rest of the Stryker's are getting. We never fought the Fuda gap thing nor are we likely to invade China - and for that kind of thing we can either use M1A's we leave in Germany or just suck it and wait for the logistics. We are however likely to end up in a situation like the french in MAli or the CAR and a few Stryker MGS seem like a useful thing to have on hand ... as far as I know most African countries don't have a load of main battle tanks and well trained crews. Something is better than nothing and a system already in place is likely easier to fix a bit than start from scratch.

I mean one of criticism is that its vulnerable to RPGs or such (in the PDF) but that is sort of the point most everything is the army (or marines) ride in except for an MBT that has reactive Armour plates, RPG grills and likely an active defense systems, smoke, jamming systems, etc - is. You know you could install the well working Israeli active defense system on at that would would help with the vulnerability issue - but no lets wait for raytheon vapor products some day I sure they will make something...

[Condottiere 40K]

It depends on what capabilities you feel are important and the compromises you are willing to make.

I'm fairly sure that you can find alternatives to the light tank role, since a wire guided missile can take out armoured vehicles; Toyotas TOWs might be more cost effective,

[conon394]

Sure we do that already with Humvess but they are even more vulnerable and less 'imposing' also if you are only shooting a T-62 or a Toyota with a 50 cal a TOW is kind of expensive per shot compared to a 105 mm round.

Again lets assume say Mali - since the its recent.

seeing as we pay through the nose bloody big CVs and clearly one CV could sweep the their entire force from the sky. Thier tanks the ones say a Jihad group could capture - non rise to the level of an modern or even semi modern MBT. So what are US light mobile forces more likely to fight in say the decade? A massive fight with Russia in the Poland or something - maybe - but that is why we already have 7000 M1s in various forms hanging around and real armored forces for. Or - some bush war with islamic nut jobs in the middle of nowhere with piss poor infrastructure (read stuff flown in) where 105mm cannon would be nice to have on call?

[Simon Cashmere]

The sunk costs are gone.

The USMC is correct that they need the solutions that the Osprey represents, but they also need a successor to actually fully realize all the promises made when the tilt rotor programme was initialized.

Osprey is fine against anyone who doesn't have a real army or AA capability. Get beyond the locals and come up against say, Russia or China, and you just have one big turkey er osprey shoot.

[Farnan]

Stryker Soldiers love the Stryker, however many of the brass didn't grow up in Stryker units.

[conon394]

Osprey is fine against anyone who doesn't have a real army or AA capability. Get beyond the locals and come up against say, Russia or China, and you just have one big turkey er osprey shoot.

You could say same of helicopter as well that the Navy CV/Air force/cruise missile job to deal with

[Condottiere 40K]

Cost effective also includes the resources to transport the light tanks to where they're needed and the cost to train and maintain the units.

I think that they might shrink the gun to under 50mm for closer range, and missiles for distance shots.

[conon394]

Stryker Soldiers love the Stryker, however many of the brass didn't grow up in Stryker units.

But I still don't get that The point is deliver a light 'Mechanized' Unit quickly and with Air Force ability. Sure out of the box it had issues but the RPG rails and vv hull mods seem to have solved many of them. As long as you have a weight limit you going to have cut some corners to deliver capability. Hopefully the guy on the ground will figure out how work that out.

[conon394]

Cost effective also includes the resources to transport the light tanks to where they're needed and the cost to train and maintain the units.

I think that they might shrink the gun to under 50mm for closer range, and missiles for distance shots.

But that goes back to cost effective missile are expensive. That the army finally admitted it need to buy the cheap Carl Gustav instead of wasting expensive man portable missiles to do the same dull jobs - the ones that don't include killing MBTs. I will admit to being wrong with proof but I the full load of rounds for Stryker MGS is likely less than the cost of the TOW equipped equivalent and is more flexible.

[Condottiere 40K]

This is all hypothetical, but I think it depends on what they're expecting to face on arrival.

A fifty millimetre should be able to deal with anything upto a medium tank, which would be earmarked for missiles.

You could then bring up 105 mm recoilless for bunker busting and direct fire support.

[conon394]

This is all hypothetical, but I think it depends on what they're expecting to face on arrival.

A fifty millimetre should be able to deal with anything upto a medium tank, which would be earmarked for missiles.

You could then bring up 105 mm recoilless for bunker busting and direct fire support.

All true but since the Army had to admit it was needed the Gustav, and it does not like MGS maybe it will go back to the M50 Ontos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M50_Ontos

... or not after all it worked and the marines liked so scratch that

[Condottiere 40K]

I think it's just short of ten tons.

Rapid response through strategic airlift has to take that into consideration.

In theory, you could preposition an Abrams battalion equipment at sea, and they should be sufficient to defeat any conceivable armour units that a third world regime could scrape up, though that's pretty much a USMC affair at that point.

It's more of an issue where time is a factor, and I guess more inland.