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Thread: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

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  1. #1
    Visna's Avatar Comrade Natascha
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    Default Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    That's the main theme of the article written by Patrick Cockburn (what an epic surname btw!) in The Independent (article available here).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Journalism is said to be the first draft of history, but it is often disappointing to find that the second or third drafts, by historians, move little further in establishing the truth about what happened. Errors made by reporters in the heat of the moment, instead of being eliminated, have become part of the authorised version. Factors that are crucial in creating the context within which events occurred go unmentioned.

    That context is the mix of hopes, fears, hatreds and habits, frequently the fruit of an individual's or a community's previous history, which are so important in determining how they will act. This is particularly true of wars when, even a few seconds after being truly frightened, it is so difficult to evoke in one's mind what those moments of terror felt like. "Can a man who is warm understand a man who is freezing?" Alexander Solzhenitsyn famously asks in One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich.

    The experience of mass fear, when large groups of people believe they are in danger of extermination or enslavement, is so important in shaping the historical instincts of countries and governments. Most European countries have suffered devastating war, foreign occupation or both over the past century, with exceptions being the British who remained unmarked by any recent experience of being wholly at the mercy of another's armies.

    For all the current focus on 1914 and the mass slaughter on the Western Front, the British experience of the First World War was, in many respects, not as bad as what is happening to the Syrians today. Britons were not driven from their homes and their whole families were not threatened, whatever death toll from the trenches. Most people are more frightened for their children than themselves, which is why the Syrian, Iraqi and Lebanese wars created such all-embracing terror.

    It is not that the British have never had such an experience of total war. But to find it you have to go back more than a thousand years, to the long period when the Vikings had taken over much of the British Isles and were ravaging the rest. They are the subject of an exhibition at the British Museum called Vikings: Life and Legend, which is more revealing in many ways about British attitudes to violence and war than are any current reflections about the First World War. Reading academic commentary on the Vikings and listening to the talk of people viewing the exhibits, there seems to be a common disbelief about how nasty wars can be and a common desire to find alternative explanations or excuses for the perpetrators of war crimes.

    In the case of the Vikings, many historians since the Sixties have ignored compelling evidence that they were mass murderers, whose atrocities were the equivalent of those carried out by SS divisions invading Poland 75 years ago. Writers all over Europe at the time of the Vikings, whose very name in Old Norse means "pirate", are at one in describing their savagery. But their terrified accounts of what happened were set aside by experts as biased because the eyewitnesses were often monks whose monasteries were prime targets of the raiders. Emphasis was instead put on the role of the Vikings as traders (though their main trade was in slaves), sailors, poets (though the Sagas were written much later) and craftsmen (though the most impressive objects in Viking hoards were looted from other countries).

    The centre-piece of the present exhibition is the remains of what is known as Roskilde 6, an 11th-century ship, discovered and excavated from the bottom of a Viking port in Denmark in 1996-97. Skilled though the Scandinavians may have been at building better warships than anybody else, it is also worth recalling that these vessels played the same role in attacking other peoples in Europe as German tanks did much later.

    It is extraordinary that the myth of the Vikings as misunderstood spreaders of Nordic culture should ever have had any credibility. My late friend Patrick Wormald, one of the great experts on Anglo-Saxon England, writing in The Anglo-Saxons, edited by James Campbell, mockingly derides the idea that the Viking attacks were "mere plunder raids which were insufficiently sensitive to local religious susceptibilities".

    Signs are overwhelming that the Vikings waged total war against the Anglo-Saxons from the time of their first recorded raid in 789. These escalated by 865 into invasions by hundreds of ships bent on conquest and settlement. Wormald notes that the kings of East Anglia and Northumbria were defeated and then seemingly killed in a sickeningly gruesome Viking ritual known as "the blood-eagle", which involved "ripping a victim's lungs out of his rib-cage, and draping them across his shoulders like eagles' wings".

    The pro-Viking lobby claim this is exaggerated stuff and there is no proof of such Viking atrocities. But the absence of evidence is scarcely surprising. The invaders, themselves illiterate, were so destructive that almost no writings survive from the conquered Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.

    The Anglo-Saxons fought back heroically, reconquering much of the country, only to succumb to a final Viking onslaught in the early 11th century. The warfare never lost its ferocity: if I look out the front door of the house where I am writing this in Canterbury, I can see the city's great medieval walls behind an earlier version behind which local people withstood a three-week siege by the Vikings from 8-29 September 1011. The Vikings finally stormed and sacked the city, taking prisoner Archbishop Alphege whom they held hostage. Angered by his refusal to allow the people in Canterbury to pay a ransom for him on the grounds that they were already too poor, the Vikings beat him to death at a drunken feast.

    The intensity of the violence was equal to anything in present-day Syria. Not many people have heard of the St Brice's Day massacre on 13 November 1002 when the Anglo-Saxon king, Ethelred the Unready, ordered the deaths of all Danes in his kingdom. In Oxford, surviving Danes barricaded themselves in a church (where Christ Church Cathedral now stands) and successfully defended themselves until townspeople set fire to the church. The skeletons of some 34 young men believed to have been killed in the same massacre were discovered under St John's College in 2008.

    Overall, the Scandinavians have a lot to apologise for. The leader of almost every Viking raiding party or army about which anything is known committed crimes which today would see them charged before the International Criminal Court.

    The exhibition at the British Museum does not quite make up its mind about the Vikings, though it is scornful of the view that their expansion was "essentially a violent one". At the same time, the authors of the book about the exhibition cautiously admit that the stereotype of bloodthirsty killers cannot be entirely discarded. Finally, they make the excuse that: "Viking warriors made up only a small and not particularly representative proportion of Scandinavian society as a whole." Of course, the same could be said of the relationship between the SS and German society in its entirety.


    Disregarding the instant pulling of the Nazi card, his campaign agianst the "pro-Viking lobby", the request for an apology for events over 1000 years ago, and the rather one sided view presented, a view which I have a distinct feeling has to be tongue-in-cheek and other such sillyness, I would like the discussion to be about when or if such apologies are necessary and/or meaningful.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    PC gone mad.

  3. #3
    Mhaedros's Avatar Brave Heart Tegan
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Is this guy serious? I mean, he really thinks that A: all vikings were uncivilised, massmurdering maniacs and that B: The people who 1000 years later live in the same country as the vikings have to apologise for whatever crimes, not at the time crimes mind, they might have committed?
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    Earl Dibbles Jr's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mhaedros View Post
    Is this guy serious? I mean, he really thinks that A: all vikings were uncivilised, massmurdering maniacs and that B: The people who 1000 years later live in the same country as the vikings have to apologise for whatever crimes, not at the time crimes mind, they might have committed?
    Here in 'Murica white people are still apologizing for their ancestors' racism.

  5. #5
    Ciciro's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrZanyGaming View Post
    Here in 'Murica white people are still apologizing for their ancestors' racism.
    Because there clearly isn't any more racists.

  6. #6
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Everyone getting so excited about this have clearly not really read the article. So I bite my thumb at you sirs. For gods sake read more than the title.

    The tone of the article for those that did not and will not read it but just read the title of the article (Visna helpfully even pointed out that the request for an apology is clearly tongue in cheek) is in part a call for historical accuracy and not a one sided cultural bias for things and ideas and peoples that have a certain romantic feeling or historical cultural glory. Rather to recognise exactly what they were.

    A similar thing happened with the Persians and the Greeks. Everyone up until recent history have written of the Persians being a bit poo, not really that good at combat and the Greeks being awesome heroes. Well certain historians are working hard to dispel that.

    But also while looking with historical accuracy at brutal killers and total war without undue veneration, I'm still more than happy to marvel at wonderful ship design as much as I can at innovative Nazi infantry tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciciro View Post
    Because there clearly isn't any more racists.
    And what have modern day racists got to do with historical racism. I mean there are still killers in Scandinavia does that mean they are like the Vikings?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrZanyGaming View Post
    Here in 'Murica white people are still apologizing for their ancestors' racism.
    I have to ask, what does that actually mean? Could you give an example?
    "Nobody is right, but historians are more right than others"



  8. #8
    Euphoric's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    The only crime here is that "Patrick Cockburn" didn't get aborted. I mean seriously? Vikings apologize for their "warcrimes" 1000 years later? That's how society was. Should the Greeks apologize to the Persians? Or the Egyptians apologize to Ethiopia? What a PC this man is.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Nietzsche

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    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Euphoric View Post
    Should the Greeks apologize to the Persians?
    No way! Sack of Athens 480BC, NEVER FORGET. Pay war reparations, Iranians!

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    TheDarkKnight's Avatar Compliance will be rewarded
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    That is absolutely ridiculous.

    Present day Scandinavians should not have any guilt whatsoever, nor should they have to apologize for things that happened a thousand years ago. They are not in the least bit responsible.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Knowing journalists, this is probably half "tongue-in-cheek". However, comparing the Vikings to the SS goes too far, and he should publicly apologize for that. There are groups that you can compare to the SS (regardless of what people who claim that "the Nazis were unique blah blah" say), but only those who had an ideology behind them like the SS did and who were sufficiently systematical in their approach.
    The Vikings did very nasty things to be sure, and I'm not for downplaying that side, however they were not at all unique. There were plenty of similar examples from history. Of course, most of those didn't concern Britain and are hence deemed of lesser importance.
    At the same time the Vikings harassed Europe from the North, Arabs did the same from the South, and Hungarians from the East. Yet neither of those appear in the text. Does the author know who they are/were?


    Furthermore I am of the opinion that anyone who compares ancient/Medieval Germanic peoples to Nazis should be banned from civilized society.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Such requests makes no sense and defy the principles of any modern democratic state. In such states genetics or original sin has no value. Why should any Scandinavian apologize for the acts of people occurring over a thousand years? Because they're somehow genetically related to them? Such a question has no place in a modern and democratic state.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    The Vikings were extremely brutal and rightly feared because of it. Also, Patrick Cockburn looks like an Eagle.
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  14. #14
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    It's pretty funny, it's blatantly tongue in cheek, (making the "anti-PC brigade"s reaction even funnier) but it's a false equivalence, should Mexico apalogise for the actions of the Aztecs? No, their modern culture is completely divorced from that culture. Japan and Germany apologized for their respective imperial atrocities while many of the instigators were still living, not to mention the millions who were complicit in those systems.
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Japan and Germany apologized for their respective imperial atrocities while many of the instigators were still living, not to mention the millions who were complicit in those systems.
    So you mean once the generation who responsible for those crimes die off, those two countries do not need to apologize anymore?
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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    So you mean once the generation who responsible for those crimes die off, those two countries do not need to apologize anymore?
    That isn't far from the truth. There is utilitarian purpose and that is it.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    This is ridiculous. Clearly there's a cut-off for an apology, because people should clearly feel guilty about killing Armenians, slaves, natives, but nothing before that.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    If the article was meant to be a parody in the level of an uncyclopedia article then sure, it could be a tongue in cheek comment to say that Scandinavians have a lot to apologize for. On the other hand, if it was a serious article then I don't see what makes it a tongue-in-cheek comment.
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  19. #19
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    How can you not see it? It was tagged on as an afterthought hardly the point of the piece. If not tongue in cheek then not exactly the articles reason d'etre and that much is absolutely beyond doubt which is why I find it odd that one sentence is the focus.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Vkings were like the SS, and Scandinavians should apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How can you not see it? It was tagged on as an afterthought hardly the point of the piece. If not tongue in cheek then not exactly the articles reason d'etre and that much is absolutely beyond doubt which is why I find it odd that one sentence is the focus.
    No one is saying that the focus of the article is just the apology part but the focus of the thread is. Which is why it's in the Political Academy and Visna is asking about apologizing for past deeds in general. Otherwise, the thread would be in the VV. Keep in mind we're not here to review the article but to discuss the issue of apologizing. The article is just there as an illustrative point of someone asking for an apology.
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