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Thread: Battle mechanics thread

  1. #1
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Battle mechanics thread

    A number of you have raised issues about upkeep costs.

    Use this thread to post ideas on battle mechanics e.g.

    - upkeep/recruitment costs
    - movement points on campaign map
    - combat statistics e.g. rate of fire/melee skill
    - melee weapons e.g. what non-firearm weapons should be e.g. rifle butt, sword etc.

    Also use this thread if you have information on such costs such as armour, weapons, salaries etc. This can feed into future releases.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; April 11, 2014 at 06:09 AM.
    Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".



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  2. #2

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Do you know of anyway to make pikes behave more like pikes in Rome 2/Some mods from Medieval 2 such as 1600 AD? This mod is fantastic and I can't wait to play more, no matter what you did great work.
    If yer going to leave some rep be sure to leave your name so I can return the favor
    "I am Andrew Ryan, and I'm here to ask you a question; Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? No! Says the man in Washington, it belongs to the poor. No! Says the man in the Vatican, It belongs to God. No! Says the Man in Moscow, It belongs to everyone. I rejected those answers, instead I choose something different... I chose the impossible... I choose.... Rapture. A city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty moralities, where the great would not be constrained by the small. And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well..."
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  3. #3
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    No I don't Ryan Industries sorry. I'm using Primergy's pike animation fix in our mod.
    Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".



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  4. #4

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Ah no worries! Thanks for putting the mod together. Any factions you'd recommend I start with?
    If yer going to leave some rep be sure to leave your name so I can return the favor
    "I am Andrew Ryan, and I'm here to ask you a question; Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? No! Says the man in Washington, it belongs to the poor. No! Says the man in the Vatican, It belongs to God. No! Says the Man in Moscow, It belongs to everyone. I rejected those answers, instead I choose something different... I chose the impossible... I choose.... Rapture. A city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty moralities, where the great would not be constrained by the small. And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well..."
    "A MAN CHOOSES! A SLAVE OBEYS!"
    -Andrew Ryan

  5. #5
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Wolves in the Throne Room is doing some impressive work on this.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; July 05, 2014 at 07:50 AM.
    Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".



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  6. #6

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Oh wow.

    Please tell me we'll see that in the next release.

  7. #7
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Those are WITR's screens. When he sends me the pack files I will test but it looks promising as a submod.
    Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".



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  8. #8

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Sounds good! I wish all the luck to him.

    Has anything been done regarding the campaign AI? I would love to look forward to the next patch since it seems so huge, but AI not doing anything on the campaign that makes all that redundant.

  9. #9
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YourStepDad View Post
    Sounds good! I wish all the luck to him.

    Has anything been done regarding the campaign AI? I would love to look forward to the next patch since it seems so huge, but AI not doing anything on the campaign that makes all that redundant.
    Well I had a large French naval invasion playing as Poland-Lithuania. I have no experience at editing Campaign AI but anyone who wants to help us out on that is welcome.
    Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".



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  10. #10

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    For me and a lot of other people - it's as if the AI basically shuts down.

    I truly do wish somebody could help you, could you ask the IS team to help you integrate darthCAI? I think that would more than do the trick.

  11. #11
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    I actually do find it a challenge on the hardest settings at least against the European and Indian factions.

    I will do what I can anyway. A lot of other changes in the next release some of which may have a knock-on effect not on CAI but on how challenging the mod is.
    Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".



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  12. #12

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    I do hope the same goes for me once the new version is out, I really do.

    Can't wait for it, whatever it brings! Have you thought of an approximate timeframe for release, or are you still adding things?

    Cheers mate.

  13. #13
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Can't give a timeframe sorry.
    Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".



    Core i7 2600 @ 3.4ghz - NVIDIA GTX950 2GB

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  14. #14

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Dang, okay, we sit and wait then, and bask at the brilliant things you guys post every once in a while. Digging the new moddb update, very nice.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Ok, so huge strides made in this pike and shot BAI, just sent my changes to Geronimo so he can check it out. Pending his thoughts/permission I intend to make a tutorial to go along with it, as it requires the player, me, you etc, to setup our armies in the pike and shot way and then the AI reacts to you and you get a pretty good simulation and you definitely get something very different from line on line, musket vs musket that we are all used to.

    Sneak peek: The mod requires you to play with 40 units per army max; the pike regiments are HUGE and the shot regiments are smaller than vanilla. Cost and upkeep has been changed so that the AI recruits them in roughly 50/50 numbers.
    The tutorial will suggest you have 4-5 pike regiments and 15-20 of shot, this will be a 50/50ish ration of actual men. The pike regiments are 450 men each, the musket 125 men each. Sizes of 300-375 pike and 125 to 250 shot have been used while developing and at the moment the 450-125 ratio seems the best.

    Trust me, it will all make sense with more screens and a video I am working on. Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    Oh man, so much has been achieved in such a short time by you both it seems.

    Can't wait for it, the screenshots make it look better than anything I would have imagined, I just hope my PC can handle it all.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    It doesn't put any more actual men on the field at any given time, yes the pike are huge, but the musket units are smaller than they were before, as are the horse units, so it evens itself out, you'll be fine if you have run large battles before.

    It just changes the dynamic of the battle from a line musket shootout, to one of a balance between pike vs pike melee and the musket regiments firing in and around those focal point. The AI definitely seeks out your pike with it's own and is way more aggressive with them, I think it is aware of the size, armor and morale improvements within the pike. The AI musket units stand and shoot and stay pretty close to their pike and only rarely charge into melee.

    The pike are huge and their combat takes up a big area and last quite awhile, but since there are so many more shot regiments on the field, that's where your tactically nous comes in. Using grenadiers at the right place with their grenades is crucial.

    You have to be very careful with your horse, they can wreck a shot regiment (significantly improved charge, slightly reduced melee for horse), but if they hit the large pike formations from any angle they are doomed. Keeping your shot somewhat close to your pike has turned out to be a very good tactic, not doing because I'm trying to play the 17th century way, but because of the changes it's tactically astute. That's probably the best part about it.

    In the tutorial you'll see where horse or enemy pike is charging and my musket gets off one last volley and then retreats backwards into the pike formation behind it just in time to avoid the impact.

    The morale has been adjusted as well and the battles are longer and way more tactical than before, quite a few times I'm pausing or going slow motion for a second and I've never done that in ETW.

    It's still ETW and the AI still does some dumb stuff now and then, but it's shaping up to be a lot of fun.

    It'll likely to be a WIP, so there will be updates even after it's out, but any changes to the BAI and unit size and upkeep will be save game compatible. In my test campaign I've changed unit sizes a few times, the already raised units keep their old size but the newly recruited ones are the new size, not a big deal.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    My thoughts:

    Its much, much cheaper to recruit / upkeep Muskets than Pikemen in the mod, as a result the AI spams Musket army's with very few Pikemen, leading to battles more akin to 18th Century. For me if anything it should be the opposite, To train a Pikeman and the upkeep of a Pike is very cheap, yet a Musket is made of numerous expensive parts along with Gunpowder and shot, with alot of training for speed, accuracy and (relative) safe use is required. But if you then enable Cheap Pikes and more expensive Muskets, the AI will spam Pikes and the muskets being of little effect tin the game would mean Pike / Pike brawls.

    I would certainly reduce the cost of Pikemen to balance between the two a little more.

    A good Musket man (Matchlock) could get approx 2 shots per minute, however given we are compressing battles that genraly took all day into approx a 30min+ time slot i would increase that to 3+ for the Mod.


    On movement points, this is one area that TW games does really badly, wars of this and ETW era were 90% positional and 10% battle! the fact enemy armys can move so far in a single turn, added with the turn based game means they can breeze straight past existing army's and waltz on by straight to a city. when clearly the enemy would have intercepted on route. I would reduce movement points a little and enlarge the zone of control allowing Army's to effectively form some coherent front.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    I second this. Much as I like realism this is really an issue that should be addressed. ETW just cannot keep up with the intended combat realism of this mod.

  20. #20
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Battle mechanics thread

    But to equip a pikeman with armour was not cheap, Poacher.
    Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".



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