Historic Annex/Client State Question

[Seamus McFlanery]

I am currently playing through my first serious playthrough as Rome and I just finished the "2nd Punic War" and have conquered all of Iberia and all of Carthage's territories in North Africa. For the most part I Annexed all of the territory except for Cirta (Numedia I believe) and Sagunton (A Greek ally of Rome which when captured by Carthage kicked off the 2nd Punic War more or less) which I made into Client States.

It is now around 590 AUC so I have about 56 years till the Marius reforms and the political change that comes with that (Republic wide Citizenship). So my question is, since I am fixing to push east into the Balkans and I am trying to keep within the historical expansion of the Roman Republic/Empire. Which settlements in Greece and the surrounding areas do I annex and which ones do I make Allied/Client States? And I guess another way to ask this is, which settlements in Greece and in the East in general where considered "friends of Rome" (Allied/Client States)?

[Seamus McFlanery]

Okay so since being home from class I've done some research and since this thread has gotten a decent amount of views but no actual answer so far I will just post what I have read on the internet. It seems like Rome historically was drawn into the conflict in Greece reluctantly. And after a series of wars with Macedonia and the Achaean League, Rome Annexed all of Greece by 146 BC. So I guess I am going to annex the whole region. So now my question is what about the rest of the Mediterranean and East. Is annexation the standard for conquest with the Client States/Allied States only being those territories that comprise mainland Italy and Sicily?

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Because of the way the basic RTW works you will find it extremely hard to follow a 'historic path' - for many of Rome's Clients/Allies (especially towards the East) pretty much invited the Romans along, which just won't happen. You'll also find it extremely hard to maintain the logistics and control over such distances without contiguous routes. Indeed I would note that the entire 'Total War' idea will be against you. I'll also note that Rome2, however, could be better at that aspect, especially with it's large number of factions and the diplomacy system.

To note - Marian reforms are nothing to do with Republic-wide citizenship. Some 10-20 years after the Marian reforms there was a gradual process of granting citizenship to all of Italy South of the Po. Citizenship thereafter tended to be on a province-wide basis and much later and not universally. Sons of legionaries and sons of retired auxilia (who had gained citizenship after service) accounted for much of it post Augustus, as well as 'favoured' individuals.

From my own play style - by the time of the Reforms I'll pretty much have all of Italy (the Po - Aretium & Ariminium down) and the islands with Citizenship - 9 of them with Campus Martius. I tend to add Genoa and that allows me to produce a 'new legion' if I need to. Congregate them at Rome to get the upgrades (and issue their Eagle) and off they go.

The main benefit in RSII (IMHO) of Allied/Clients is access to Allied Cohorts pre-Reforms. Thereafter it's often much easier to simply grant Citizenship as part of, literally, Romanizing and keeping Unrest under control - but them I'm just too nice!

[Seamus McFlanery]

Because of the way the basic RTW works you will find it extremely hard to follow a 'historic path' - for many of Rome's Clients/Allies (especially towards the East) pretty much invited the Romans along, which just won't happen. You'll also find it extremely hard to maintain the logistics and control over such distances without contiguous routes. Indeed I would note that the entire 'Total War' idea will be against you. I'll also note that Rome2, however, could be better at that aspect, especially with it's large number of factions and the diplomacy system.

To note - Marian reforms are nothing to do with Republic-wide citizenship. Some 10-20 years after the Marian reforms there was a gradual process of granting citizenship to all of Italy South of the Po. Citizenship thereafter tended to be on a province-wide basis and much later and not universally. Sons of legionaries and sons of retired auxilia (who had gained citizenship after service) accounted for much of it post Augustus, as well as 'favoured' individuals.

From my own play style - by the time of the Reforms I'll pretty much have all of Italy (the Po - Aretium & Ariminium down) and the islands with Citizenship - 9 of them with Campus Martius. I tend to add Genoa and that allows me to produce a 'new legion' if I need to. Congregate them at Rome to get the upgrades (and issue their Eagle) and off they go.

The main benefit in RSII (IMHO) of Allied/Clients is access to Allied Cohorts pre-Reforms. Thereafter it's often much easier to simply grant Citizenship as part of, literally, Romanizing and keeping Unrest under control - but them I'm just too nice!

I was under the impression that Republic-wide citizenship was a part of the reforms. I assumed that Marius introduced it in order to grow the army in mainland Italy and then after the Socii wars in around 90 BCE citizenship was granted Republic wide. My mistake.

Yeah I unfortunately also found out that expanding in an historic manner was impossible. I was able to get to the Black Sea and take Byzantine from the Macedonians and wipe them out completely all the while Dacia kept pressing my boarders all along the way. Then after pushing Dacia back and expanding my Republic northward towards Romania the Sarmatians attacked me out of no where and so I had to push into the Ukraine and Crimea. This was also around 133 BCE which was when Pergamon was gifted to the Romans and therefore I decided to give myself their lands and try to hold them but of course with new lands came new problems. I had rebellions and Pergamon decided they wanted their lands back so I had to fight them all while I decided to push into Dacian territory to take the fight to them. At my last turn Armenia decided to declare war on me and the Ptolemaic Hegemony decided that our ceasefire was over and pressed my African holdings.

It's just impossible to progress in any semblance of a historic manner but I don't want to just make all settlements allied states or grant citizenship. I want to try and wait to give citizenship till around 90 BCE and to hold off on the reforms until 107 BCE. I did grant citizenship to Byzantine and was going to make Pergamon a client state and use those two settlements to pump troops out to fight in the east. So I have two questions

1) Is there any house rules/recommendations to balance things out in terms of troop production settlements when your Republic gets that big? (My territory spans from North Africa and Iberia all the way to the Black Sea in the east but I have yet to push north of the Alps or east into Egypt or the Middle East past Asia Minor).

2) Is there any way to reduce the amount of nations that declare war on you and is there anyway to stem the endless waves of armies? I am getting attacked by Dacia from the Slavic states all the way to my Black Sea territories and it is just too much land to protect without bankrupting my Republic and I don't want to push north until the reforms. Also why is it that every nation that borders you automatically hate your guts? It seems like the only allies that don't stab me in the back are those whom I don't share borders with.

[Rex Basiliscus]

I agree with Tedric. Although I always go with the Client state option, my only "annexed" region is the one from the start - Rome.

[Seamus McFlanery]

I agree with Tedric. Although I always go with the Client state option, my only "annexed" region is the one from the start - Rome.

It depends on the territory for me. For independent Greek City-States I will make them client states and for lands I've taken, well since they were won from the Punic Wars and the Macedonia Wars I annexed those regions save for Cirta which is suppose to be the kingdom of Numidia ( I just looked it up and saw that all of the territory surrounding Carthago up to Siga is apart of Numidia so it looks like I need to correct that). But Carthago and Iberia along with Greece have all been annexed so far. It just seems logical to do it that way. Also it makes it more challenging since you can't pump out Polybian legions at every settlement.

[Rex Basiliscus]

I usually go for "client state" option in all the conquered regions, but construct the actual barracks only in some "strategic centers": in Hispania - Numantia and Carthago Nova (+maybe Emporiae), in Gaul - Bratuspantion, Gergovia, Massalia, Vesontio and Bagacum (the Rhine frontier), in Africa - Cirta and Carthago Nova, in Illyria - Segestica, in Greece, Thrace and Moesia - Singidunum, Serdica (forgot the actual name), Philipoupolis, Pella, Athens, Nicopolis ... other than that, I haven't really made it into Asia that many times But I'd probably make military settlements in Pegamon, Mazaca, Antiochia, Jerusalem, Alexandria and some bordering Mesopotamian city ...

You see I tend to organize defenses along the borders (the Rhine, Danube etc.) by putting forts on the river crossings or where the passage is narrow (like the Alps) and also protect my holdings by creating a military settlement or a couple in each province, from where I recruit a legion or two for each province ... the Rhine border has three and Danube will as well if not more.