Some 1st impressions after switching from old 2.4 to 2.6

[volleyfire]

Just played my first battle against Hannibal under 2.6. Here are some of my 1st impressions. Welcome to leave any comments that you might have
1. I remember reading somewhere that unit of campanion cavalry in capua is no longer available in 2.6. However, I was still able to find it in Capua and used it to good effects.
2. General and units getting experience slower than before. After defeating and killed Hannibal, my general only got 1 star. Even though I killed 3500+ while merely losing 800 on my own, only 3 of my units advanced one rank, all of them are cavalry. My infantry got many kills, too, but none of them ranked up.
3. Management and influence seem to rank up whole lot faster than command. You put anyone in a city and he can collect many management and influence after a few turns.
4. Battle AI is very good. I think it's the best of all TW (with or without mods)games so far. AI knows when to use close or loose formation and how skirmish to gain advantage on you. Also when you try to gang on its general, it will pull a lot of cav back from front lines to help out. Also generals are no longer stupidly charging in and sacrifice themselves early in the battle.
5. The turn after Hannibal, I got a message about rebellion in Italia. However, I saw no rebellions. Everything is cool. I remember the trigger for the first rebellion is after losing a number of battles. Is the trigger still the same in 2.6?

Overall, I believe it's a great improvement over the old versions.

[romanius24]

Unit experience should really be changed.I dont think i ever got experience for units other than the general/cav in a battle.
The only way i ever done it was with auto resolve...
Command stars are too rare IMO, 90% of my generals only ever get 1.I think they should be easy to get all the way to ~5 but harder from then(possible with traits?)

One complaint i have about the BAI is that it doesnt use cavalry properly, i just destroyed the elite Syracusan cavalry with cheap light cav just because i charged into them at full speed while they were just moving slowly.
They looked amazing but died almost instantly since they didnt react to my charge.The giant lithobolos at the back reacted almost instantly though.

Weird thing about Hannibal is that he actually left in 2 of my roman campaigns.One time he just disappeared and another he tried to run back to Spain(disappeared on the way).


I believe the Campainian Cavalry thing was just changed so that you dont recruit it anymore.

[Alavaria]

If you take Genoa, I think the Carthage AI will try to pull back "stranded" armies, like Hannibal and so on. Since there is an overland route to Carthaginian holdings, he will probably try to walk all the way back...

[High Fist]

Campanian cav is no longer recruitable; that one unit is completely unique.

Command stars are slow to get because the mods wanted great commanders to be rare. Not just any old governor can gain command, you need to fight. A lot. Winning heroic victories is the quickest way to do it.

The revolt not happening doesn't sound good. I think it just triggers on the 3rd/4th turn.

[volleyfire]

Campanian cav is no longer recruitable; that one unit is completely unique.

Command stars are slow to get because the mods wanted great commanders to be rare. Not just any old governor can gain command, you need to fight. A lot. Winning heroic victories is the quickest way to do it.

The revolt not happening doesn't sound good. I think it just triggers on the 3rd/4th turn.

Does that mean my game is screwed up somehow? I haven't lost any battle yet? I know in old version it only triggers after you lose some battles.

[Rex Basiliscus]

The revolt triggers randomly in the first few turns, meaning it can trigger on the 2nd, 3rd, or 5th turn from the start of the campaign.

The Campanian cavalry is no longer recruitable (I think only Capua in its own campaign can recruit it, but I'm not sure).

Hannibal will leave Italy, if Genoa is lost. That is because the AI won't "behave" like a player, meaning it will only attack its neighouring regions - and since in this case Genoa is lost and Carthage doesn't own any city in Italy, their armies will leave "back home".

I don't know if it's just my luck, but in my current Roman campaign, I was hard pressed from the very beginning - I had lost all of south Italy to rebels (4 full stacks spawned which I couldn't manage), I had barely defeated the Carthaginians in the North and had to constantly repel them in Caralis (constant naval invasions, which were rare using Alex.exe, as I recall), then the Gallaeci went bananas and after conquering the whole of Iberia and Nemausus, started attacking me at Massalia, while my Alpine forts (I put them on strategic points in the Alpine passes to block the attacks from the north) were constantly attacked by Arverni. After I have repelled the Gallaeci and started conquering Iberia, Macedon (which now controled all of the Balkans south of Danube and Sava rivers) started invading from Segestica and constant sieges of Patavium have followed ever since. Another thing that surprised me were the many naval invasions of Pollentia by Gallaeci. NEVER seen that before.

Currently, I control all of Italy, Iberia and Africa (with Carthage and Gallaeci destroyed) plus the islands in western Mediterranean and Provincia (Massalia and Nemausus). I am gathering a force of 5 legions to conquer Gallia, the attack being led by my FL and top commander Manius Cornelius Scipio (10 stars). I will defend Italy with two legions, with the Macedonian armies invading the northern regions.

All in all, a pretty great campaign

[romanius24]

Command starts being hard to get is definitely a great idea but i think the first few starts should be easier to get.
I am almost constantly switching generals because of the imperium thing.If it doesnt have at least 2-3 stars then i might as well get a new one.
The same thing is happening with my armies, since they arent getting any XP then i just recruit new ones and dont bother retraining.
On 0-turn doing anything else is very inefficient.Why retrain if the unit doesnt have any XP to keep?You can just recruit new units and they have 1 trip to make(to the front) rather than 2(home and back).
I switched to 1-turn recently but the only reason i retrain here is because it takes longer to recruit.


I think XP and the first few stars should be easier to get and it would encourage players to take care of their soldiers more rather than just having them as a "resource".
Maybe having certain traits that give the first "basic" stars.First battle, first siege and first defense(possible?).



This would also improve immersion since you would take care of your armies and their veterans.
I allows players to roleplay much better and getting new cohorts in an army would feel like getting rookies that cant quite keep up with the veterans instead of feeling like you are just getting full units.
XP would also help improve the lethality of soldiers which i always said was a bit of a problem(battles are really boring visually). No battle speed submods would be needed.

Having a clearer cause and effect like this would greatly improve the gameplay IMO.
Currently the game is lacking a clearly visible effect when it comes to soldiers or just choices in general.
There is almost no visible difference in battle between an average soldier and an elite one, they all fight for a long time, good morale and slow lethality.
But if XP would be more common then its very likely you would see a clear difference in a battle line between good and average soldiers.Making you feel like you have done something right.


Something to think about anyway.I think XP could improve gameplay quite a bit and some "easy stars" could also improve immersion and roleplay of generals.

[Alavaria]

The XP-by-killing for soldiers is pretty much hardcoded I think.

Now, getting XP-by-autoresolve is easier, which helps the AI a lot, less so the player as it will give you terrible results where 10 guys killed 200 of yours...

There is almost no visible difference in battle between an average soldier and an elite one, they all fight for a long time, good morale and slow lethality.
But if XP would be more common then its very likely you would see a clear difference in a battle line between good and average soldiers.Making you feel like you have done something right.

Ironically, it seems impossible to drown an AI force with militia to kill them in this current balancing, it was before.

Definitely, it's amusing to watch your levies hold down all the elite troops for someone else to kill...

[romanius24]

XP is a lot easier to get in other mods.There must be a reason why its so difficult in RS2 and probably a way to improve it.
I suspect its because the lethality is so low in RS2(which is why cav gets it so easy) but there might be other reasons.

However, i am using the battle speed submod which improves lethality and there isnt any difference.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

- Generals 'levelling up' (horrible, just horrible!) is not supposed to be easy. It is entirely possible for some Generals (well managed and used) to get to 10 stars (fighting every battle and never auto-resolving) - tested comprehensively.

- Same goes for units. The AI advantage is supposed to be preserved somewhat - even Silver Chevrons should be quite hard. I almost never 're-train', it's much more realistic to bring up reserves and add. Really good troops should be rare elites and these can be managed too.

- The BAI is unchanged - it's what you do with it and why unit stats have been tweaked so heavily. It's also the reason battles are longer - it allows the player and the AI to use more 'realistic' tactics. If the player recruits armies with historic unit elements (as the AI roughly does), then it all makes sense.

The game length should rough out at about 1 hour per 1turn! 20mins for the admin/campaign and 2 x 20min battles Some will be longer.

[romanius24]

- Generals leveling up isnt really what i had in mind.But it doesnt really make sense(to me atleast) that such a high number of generals are awful.Wouldnt it make more sense if an average general has 3-4 stars rather than 1?I think that stars should be inflated a bit for that reason.
I dont want 10 star generals to be easy to get but i think the contrast is way to high.


- Battle length isnt really a problem, its just that lethality is so low that they are too boring to look at(which is really a shame since units are so well crafted).
There is almost no killing happening, i could be watching a bunch of slinger fighting with daggers or elites and they would hit each other for minutes and not go down.

Most of the killing happens when one side breaks which i dont think its as realistic as people claim, at least not the way it is now ingame.Fighting should be a lot more brutal and there should be a lot more deaths before one side breaks.

I dont think i have ever seen a unit run because it is getting its ass kicked in a unit-to-unit battle, its always some indirect hit to morale which turns every battle into "how do i scare those guys away from my army" and unit positioning and battle formations dont matter as much as they should.

I rarely use any "elite" units anymore because they are just expensive and none of their abilities matter in my battles.I have no need of extra morale because average soldiers are just as good and their damage doenst matter since they dont really kill anything.
I usually recruit one in my capital just for roleplaying reasons but they never actually do anything.

This morale game is why all of my armies are made of a cheap battle line and lots of cavalry(to hunt down the general and then flank) and plenty of slingers to demoralize the enemy.

[Alavaria]

Most of the killing happens when one side breaks which i dont think its as realistic as people claim, at least not the way it is now ingame.Fighting should be a lot more brutal and there should be a lot more deaths before one side breaks.

That's odd, I frequently see the AI units (and my own levies, even) fight to 40/240 or even less (for the AI, or my good generals) before routing.

I dont think i have ever seen a unit run because it is getting its ass kicked in a unit-to-unit battle, its always some indirect hit to morale which turns every battle into "how do i scare those guys away from my army" and unit positioning and battle formations dont matter as much as they should.

....

This morale game is why all of my armies are made of a cheap battle line and lots of cavalry(to hunt down the general and then flank) and plenty of slingers to demoralize the enemy.

I'm interested in how your slingers demoralize the enemy... by killing them, you mean?

Ah wait... what battle difficulty do you use?

[ur-Lord Tedric]

................
This morale game is why all of my armies are made of a cheap battle line and lots of cavalry(to hunt down the general and then flank) and plenty of slingers to demoralize the enemy.

But this, of course, is not how the Mod is designed to be and why it is so optimised. That's a wholly unrealistic army - at any period! It would be 'nicer' if cavalry units could simply be more appropriately priced, but there are reasons we cannot; and I know that many players would not like to rise to the challenge of a sufficient logistic chain to provide a measure of the trained cavalry need (easily 5x the rate of replacement of infantry, if not a whole lot more)

[volleyfire]

Hey Tedric. A couple of questions for u:
1. Why don't you retrain your experienced units? It's just your playstyle (to be more realistic)? Would retraining better preserve unit experience?
2. Would General's high personal kills in a battle give him a higher chance to rank up (getting stars)?
3. My generals sitting in cities as governors are losing loyalty fast. What is causing it?

Thanks

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Hey Tedric. A couple of questions for u:
1. Why don't you retrain your experienced units? It's just your playstyle (to be more realistic)? Would retraining better preserve unit experience?
2. Would General's high personal kills in a battle give him a higher chance to rank up (getting stars)?
3. My generals sitting in cities as governors are losing loyalty fast. What is causing it?

Thanks

I would indeed say that (1) is down to playstyle and the fact that I tend to reduce risk (which, admittedly, can slow me down I know) by always deploying reserves - and that's how I manage my legions. Whilst I know that my 'armies' really represent 2-4 legions, I still happily embrace the '1 legion' concept when it comes to the named and numbered. What that means is that I deploy my legions (plus their support) in one-and-a-half stacks (~30 units); with a 'spare'/reserve rate of 1:2 (so I even have to have a spare '1st cohort' simply because of the way units work in RTW - obviously if I could merge 'ordinary' cohorts into the 1st, that would have been ideal). So, I reinforce from the spares after almost every battle and then build a replacement from 'home base' and send to the reserve's camp location. This way my 'army' always stays at full strength (unless things get very dicey) and it's another reason I pretty much never lose a fight, even when the AI deploys more than one army.

(2) - a General must fight (risk himself) in the first one or two battles in order to show he will take risks with his men, but practicably to kick off the promotion system (Stars). Personal kills in battle, however, increase his experience, not his rank. Rank increase subsequently comes more from the overall battle results.

Now if you're getting (3), then I suspect you are leaving the settlements on VH taxes and ignoring the warnings and not checking their traits. No one likes VH taxes and the populace take this out on the Governor!

[romanius24]

Yes, slingers are really good at killing which is why i use them with cavalry as well.
But i noticed that they drop the morale of a unit by one stage after 3-4 volleys.

I dont think i have ever seen a unit fight that long, i must always break them with cavalry or slingers.
I suppose that if i wait for 30-40 mins then they kill some stuff but thats insane.

[century x]

Yes, slingers are really good at killing which is why i use them with cavalry as well.
But i noticed that they drop the morale of a unit by one stage after 3-4 volleys.

I dont think i have ever seen a unit fight that long, i must always break them with cavalry or slingers.
I suppose that if i wait for 30-40 mins then they kill some stuff but thats insane.

Just use those slingers on the backs of your enemy and you can wipe out at least two whole units...

I love doing that

[stackero]

Yes, slingers are really good at killing which is why i use them with cavalry as well.
But i noticed that they drop the morale of a unit by one stage after 3-4 volleys.

I dont think i have ever seen a unit fight that long, i must always break them with cavalry or slingers.
I suppose that if i wait for 30-40 mins then they kill some stuff but thats insane.

Interesting discussion. romanius, may I ask, what level of battle difficulty do you play?

[Alavaria]

The only infantry of mine that seem to get experience with any regularity are pikemen, because when enemies rout while in the pikes, they will die. But almost all the pikemen are still at the same experience they started life with.

The real gains are for the one or two units that kill tons of guys when it's a river crossing fight, and a lot of the enemies try to rout by running into pikemen at the sides. Besides such cases, every now and then someone gets experience. Or when the AI's skirmishers try fighting in melee I guess

All the other infantry just die whenever they have to fight the enemy, too bad for them.

[tungri_centurio]

i have more great generals in one roman 2.6 campaign than in all my campaigns prior to 2.6 ,but now i use them alot more for hunting down ranged units,enemy generals and attacking infantry in the rear.not only for killing routed units.
so like tedric says,you need to use them right and in alot of battles to gain the stars they deserve.

same with the infantry,my legio gallica got when recruited bronze chevrons,but after lots of battles most units in that army got gold ones just by fighting in iberia,gaul,germania,brittanica.
archers,slingers,cav got their chevrons alot faster but they do most of the killing while the infantry pin them down.