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Thread: Russian units (forthcoming)

  1. #1
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Russian units (forthcoming)

    Znat: (elite noble cavalry - by a non team member thank you):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Pomiestnaya Konnitsa (landed cavalry) - credits to Nizam and Otto Flik(qwert for the model/textures):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Russian cavalry officer (early - credits to Nizam and Otto Flik(qwert) for the model/textures:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Zhilcy (Tsar's elite guard):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Russian dragoons replaced:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Vybranniye Streltsy
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Feudal arquebusiers (next release):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Arquebusiers (next release):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Feudal cavalry:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ----
    Late units in construction phase:

    Stepan Yanov regt:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Fedor Golovlinski regt:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Egor Lytohin regt:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Nikitor Kolobev regt
    Fedor Alexandrov regt
    Ivan Poltev regt:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Vasili Byhotsev regt:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; July 04, 2014 at 03:13 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    Great but Lithuanian streltsy was troops of lithuanian Prince Radziwill. Lithuanians and Moscow were mortal enemies in this period. This units was only in Poand-Lithania. It is possible that any Russians units looked simillar to them but any evidence doesn't exist. Osprey probably put them in the picture as an example of adversaries. Their counterpart on the Russian side were Пищальники. ( pishtsalniks? )

  3. #3
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    Quote Originally Posted by Otto Flik (qwert) View Post
    Great but Lithuanian streltsy was troops of lithuanian Prince Radziwill. Lithuanians and Moscow were mortal enemies in this period. This units was only in Poand-Lithania. It is possible that any Russians units looked simillar to them but any evidence doesn't exist. Osprey probably put them in the picture as an example of adversaries. Their counterpart on the Russian side were Пищальники. ( pishtsalniks? )
    They are in an Osprey ebook I have about Russian armies and described as troops of Prince Radziwill.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    Yes. I have this Osprey too. But this album is "specific..."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radziwi%C5%82%C5%82

  5. #5
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    Thank you. The Lithuanians will only be available to Poland-Lithuania following my checking of my Osprey ebook. It is puzzling that they included enemy units in what is supposed to be a book about Russian armies.
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  6. #6
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    Uanime5 has managed to get the Russian line infantry to use the berdiche as a musket rest. Will be in the next release:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
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  7. #7
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    Updated.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    WTF ? Zhilcy (Tsar's elite guard) looks like Polish Winged Hussars

  9. #9
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    Quote Originally Posted by dawioza View Post
    WTF ? Zhilcy (Tsar's elite guard) looks like Polish Winged Hussars
    Nope they wore no armour.

    For source see below.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails gorelik22ja0.jpg  
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    I'm wondering if I did something wrong.
    I downloaded this mod just to use streltsy in campaign - is there no way to get them to use their bardiche in melee combat?

    I understand the animation to use it as a rest for an arquebus when firing is probably out of the question but seems silly for them to be holding these large melee weapons only to try and use their firearm
    in hand to hand combat.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    This is just sick. None of Russian / Muscovy troops ever used those 'wings'. It was only Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that had those on their Winged Hussars. An earlier version of these 'wings' was used by the Ottomans on their light cavalry, but those looked totally different. Muscovites would never have put anything like that on their cavalry because the 'wings' themselves were considered a very recognizable Polish symbol.

    BTW what's the point of transliterating words like Zhilcy or Vybranniye Streltsy? Such transliterations give no idea of how to pronounce that (jeel-TSEE, VEEB-run-nee-yeah strel-TSEE) and even if you know how to, these terms are nigh to impossible for a non-Slavic speaker to say out loud anyway (my first language is Russian and second is English, so I have some idea) 'Streltsy' literally means 'shooters' in its most generic sense (archers included), but in modern Russian mostly invokes the image of an arquebusier. So Vybranniye Streltsy is just Chosen Arquebusiers or better say Elite Arquebusiers.

    'Zhilcy' means literally 'lodgers' but in a figurative sense 'those ordered by their superiors to live in a prescribed place', that is, people drafted from the gentry and quartered in Moscow to serve as the Tsar's elite troops (the Zhilcy were strictly exclusive to Moscow, but were drafted from all across Russia) Why not call them what they exactly were -- Drafted Gentry? At least that's perfectly pronounceable.

    'Znat' is not a military term, it simply means 'Men of Renown' which in a historical sense translates to 'Titled Aristocracy'. From what I gather the 'Znat' in the mod simply represents the wealthiest and best equipped part of the Pomiestnaya Konnitsa. Why not call them just the Nobles? That's exactly how all the Russian nobles fought in that era. They all stuck with outdated heavy armor and weapons like maces, axes and bows. They all rode on horseback. When you say Nobles in a military sense you can hardly imagine anything else than what we have in those 'Znat' pics.

    'Pomiestnaya Konnitsa' is literally Landed Cavalry without any special connotations. European knights as well as any other kinds of land-holding nobles who had to serve as heavy cavalry for their sovereigns can safely and indiscriminately be called 'Pomiestnaya Konnitsa' in Russian.

    NOTE: Despite their formidable looks, heavy weapons and armor, Russian noble cavalry sucked on a cosmic scale even in melee due to their exceptionally poor organisation and morale. First they would mount an uncontrollable, fierce charge... but upon the earliest realisation of being unable to steamroll the enemy, the noble cavalry would shamelessly rout. You can consult Osprey's books on that point, or look for Wikipedia articles on the Smolensk War and Time of Troubles. I would assume that the noble cavalry was actually good against anything that was not pike or shot, but they had no chance against the Polish hussars or arquebusiers holding proper formation. If you are interested please do some research on the Battle of Klushino where the landed cavalry started out like the coolest kids on the block, but soon realised they weren't.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Klushino

    What is currently called 'Arquebusiers' in those pics should probably be called 'Feudal Arquebusiers' They look like a more outdated version of the Streltsy. But I've never heard of those. Firearm-bearing infantry in the Tsar's army had abandoned armor since around 1550 (and had little armor since 1500) It was just the mounted nobles who loved armor because it looked cool and offered protection against arrows employed by Russia's many nomadic enemies in the East. I can hardly imagine the Tsar's infantry wearing armor in 1608, and I'm not really sure feudals would equip their personal levies with firearms, or had any significant levies at all. In 1608 it was all more like, everybody serves the Tsar and his appointed generals, every soldier is drafted by the Tsar, and the nobles aren't really expected to bring along their own 'warbands' or equip them at their own expense. So the very image of a Russian arquebusier in lamellar/chainmail armor puzzles me beyond all limits. That guy looks like he's from 1530 and went to war as part of his feudal master's levy.

    Vybranniye Streltsy (Elite Arquebusiers) look just perfect! You managed to capture that mixed half-European, half-Eastern look pretty well! That actually happened in those years, the mixing of West European paraphernalia and the generally Eastern looking uniforms. Cabasset-type helmets were indeed adopted by some regiments in the Russian military but they phased out by maybe 1650. Those guys look much like the New Order Regiments:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_Regiments

    Notice: New Order pikemen often employed imported European armor but New Order arquebusiers almost never used it. Most New Order regiments stuck with distinctly Russian clothing but it was not uncommon for their officers to wear Western European uniforms.



  12. #12

    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)



    That illustration is by M. Gorelik and was stolen (or licensed) from a 1990's series of Russian children's encyclopedias. Gorelik is known for basing his images on old lithos and gravures, often sacrificing historicity.

    Those wings in that pic are Deli-style wings, not a borrowing from the Polish troops. Deli style wings had no wooden frame. No idea why Gorelik chose to put those on a Russian cavalryman. Crimean Tartars could have used those, but putting on yourself something so closely associated with the enemy just made no sense, be it Polish style or Ottoman style wings.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deli_(Ottoman_troops)

    The worst part of this story is that Muscovites never used them.

    There was a small fraction of Polish-Lithuanian mercenaries in the Russian army between 1630-1660, they indeed mixed the Polish-style wings with Russian attire (look up Krzysztof Rylsky)



    But they had nothing to do with the Zhilcy. They were a small bunch of foreign mercenaries, actually the best cavalry Russia could afford in those days.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    It is puzzling that they included enemy units in what is supposed to be a book about Russian armies.
    Russia employed Polish-Lithuanian mercenaries against the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. That was an OK thing to do, PLC had weak central authority and strong nobles, it was not uncommon for some of them to desert for Russian service (especially if bullied by a more successful aristocratic family)

    The above mentioned Krzysztof Rylsky started his career in Russia as the head of a Polish-Lithuanian mercenary warband, fought against Crimean Tartars and Polish-Lithuanian troops, and by 1660 adopted Orthodoxy and was appointed head of Russia's first and only 'Polish style' Hussar regiment. They were mostly Russians, part of them were Polish-Lithuanian veterans with decades of Russian service behind their backs, and all of them were equipped to resemble the Polish Hussars of those days.

    After 1660, Russian Hussar regiments were almost completely made of Russians, and few to none Polish-Lithuanian mercenaries remained. Their armor and attire was much like of their Polish counterparts but there were no wings. Initial suits of armor were imported from Poland, but since about 1650 Russia started to produce its own Western-style armor in the city of Tula.

    Mercenary troops from Sweden, Holy Roman Empire and Scotland were also employed by Russia throughout the XVII century, and sometimes had to fight their own compatriots hired by Russia's enemies. From the second half of the XVII century, Russia developed its own Western-style troops, e.g. the totally useless Landed Cavalry and other types of hereditary warriors were re-equipped and re-trained as Western-style Reiters and Hussars (they kept all of their privileges -- this wasn't a shift of class but a change of tactics and technology)

    By the way here's a XVIII century illustration that M. Gorelik apparently used as a base for his 'Zhilcy' pic.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Although it claims to depict a Zhiltets in 1678, the guy in the pic is probably pieced together by the XVIII century artist's impressions of a visit to the Kremlin Armoury: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kremlin_Armoury

    The guy's attire uses elements from different and too distant decades of the XVII century and he apparently wields a nonexistent weapon inspired by some early XVIII century Russian officers' polearms, but those didn't exist in 1678 and Zhilcy ceased to exist in 1701...

    Every time you see that 'M. Gorelik' signature in any of the illustrations, double check that Gorelik didn't base that particular picture on an earlier XVIII or XIX century illustration done by an artist totally ignorant in the matters of military history. Those bastards would simply go to the Kremlin Arsenal for some impressions, and the Kremlin Arsenal contained all sorts of outdated arms piled together without proper historical attribution...

    P.S. Early XVII century Polish-Lithuanian mercenaries and late XVII century Polish-style Russian Hussars could be made Regiments of Renown, with Polish-style wings and all. The problem is that both kinds of troops would be called Krzysztof Rylsky Regt. because he was the first to establish a well-known Polish-Lithuanian Hussar mercenary company in Russia AND the first one to foster Russia's first 'native' Hussar regiment.

  14. #14
    golfthai's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    @Mcbak
    What can you expect of him? (the mod Author) He never actually complete/fix this mod unit roster, not even he can decide a start date and a period that he will focus to work on, the worst part is he actually not completing this mod itself before Start a new one (The nine years War Submod)

    to Geronimo2006
    I respect you for your hardworking to Simulate the world of the 17th Century. But I think Colonialism 1600Ad is a huge mass, Unlike your previous Mod (The Portuguese Unit mod and Historical Marines Mod) Colonialism 1600 Ad is more than a mod of a unit or two. But it must simulate a larger scale, that is the world itself it set in…and yet I think you have failed, yes I know modding is hard, both fun and boring at the same time. I think you must rework this mod from the ground up, Make it part by part, factions by faction with Clear plan or roadmap in sight.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    Just another 5 cents. Beware of any 'historical' or 'reconstructionist' works (including certain Osprey books) that draw on contemporary material based off A.V. Viskovatov's XIX century work A Historical Description of Russian Troops' Uniform and Armaments

    Viskovatov was not a scholar and did invent things that were taken uncritically by many XX century researchers.

    E.g. in the English Wiki we read about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovnya

    "This was a popular weapon with late-medieval Muscovite cavalry and retained use until the mid-17th century."

    The Russian article says,

    "Given the abundance of sources on the armaments of the Russian cavalry, there does not exist a single source, textual or illustrative, or of any other kind, that would at least allow some possibility for the actual use of such a weapon by the said troops"

    "According to A.N. Chubinsky, 'sovnya' is yet another invention by Viskovaty, one that has nothing to do with the historical terminology.

    And here comes the magnificient 'sovnya' by Viskovaty. Guess how many fools like Gorelik went on reiterating the myth, then selling their illustrations to other fools like Osprey? Angel wings on XVII century Russian cavalry are another nonsensical thing we owe to Viskovaty's amateurish 'reconstructions'


  16. #16

    Default Re: Russian units (forthcoming)

    Osprey is generally a terrible source of historical info, its too bad they are so widespread

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