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  1. #1
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    The Gnostic point of view on the matter of God, is quite a complicated thing. Many religions claim that they worship the only God, but what about the one which has died out and remained only in arcane references and obscure quotations throughout literature? What about that which some claim is the religion of Leonardo Da Vinci and the whole Italian Renaissance? That of Alchemy and the rebirth of science in Europe?

    Let's then shortly introduce this topic:

    God is unfathomable and not understandable, beyond matter and thought, and even worship.

    That which is understandable, and can be worshipped, is the Demiurge. The Demiurge, a partially unthinking and irrational, crippled being of great but not infinite power, rules the world, with the permission of God. Infact, it can be said, that the Demiurge, which Christians call Satan, is part, though unwillingly for some, of God, something which in a fit of superb and arrogance, tried to overtake the rule of Heaven, but failed, and hence created the world of matter to imprison human souls, as a form of vengeance towards the real divinity. Other gnostic sources state that the Devil is used to try men, and that he serves the purpose of God.

    As material reality cannot generate spiritual beings, men are spirits who have fallen prey of the Demiurge's illusion (the material world is in truth an illusion) and become prisoners of this Archon's (the Demiurge, there are other Archons) power over matter.

    The Demiurge, as part of the Godly, is infact not unlike the Devil in the Old Testament, where it can be read that a goat is sacrificed to God, and one to Azazel. In Job, the Devil tempts God into punishing a rightful man. Though in truth rudimentary, these descriptions would, and probably will, require a long dissertation.

    The cult of Baal, has allegedly given birth to masonic cults and groups as well as many traditions which from a Christian point of view are Satanic. The symbolic part of this will be described further onwards, as the discussion develops. In the past I have posted, and I will repost, a Canaanite myth of Baal which describes Baal's rivalry with El (plural Elohim, a name of the Jewish God).

    Many Gnostic models of the Demiurge are based on Baal, who was in truth an analogue of Jupiter/Saturn as well.

    Baal was worshipped by circumambulating baetyla, dark stones allegedly fallen from the sky, which had to be circled praying in counterclockwise sense, in many rites.

    This is what Muslims do today, in the Kaaba.

    Discuss, more will follow.
    Last edited by Ummon; October 12, 2006 at 02:04 PM.

  2. #2
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    If you're seeing Islam from the point that it's a new religion then you'll reach that conclusion as stated above. However as muslims learned that Islam or Ad0din (the way of life) goes way back to Adam and for each and every tribe or people after him there's a new messenger who do not brough a new religion but the same religion or way of life with the differences maybe in the implementation of the law.

    So, from an Islamic point of view the stuff about Baal and such was actually the corrupted version of the way of life where men (and women) replace God with manifestation of gods maybe because they cannot believe what they cannot see and so on.

    The Islam that was brough by Muhammad was not a new religion as what is generally believe but a continuation of the Tauhid concept (oneness of God) from the time of Adam and has been brough through other messengers such as Noah, Moses and Jesus.

    What can be considered new is the law (or better the implementation of the law) in the form of Syariah and Fiqh. The stuff about the Canaanite and the Baal and the act of circumambulating the baitullah (the house of God) was a corruption of the acts from the teachings of Abraham who build the Kaabah as part of the covenant.

    Finally, Allah is not the name of God. It's an Arabic word which means God (in English( and Elohim (in Hebrew). It just mean He who has the Godhood which is the power to create the entities. His names are actually :

    Ar-Rahmaan , Ar-Rahim , Al-Malik , Al-Quddus and so on. LINK


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  3. #3
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    That is indeed an interesting stance. Interesting because, infact, Jews did not circumambulate the Ark of the Covenant, and there was no order to do so in the Torah. Besides, the stone tablets were not baetyla, but essentially, the vessel where the law of God given to Moses had been written.

    Now you will notice as well, that the (then, for muslims) chosen people of God, the Jews, aside from never receiving orders to circumambulate the Ark and the Tablets, could not touch the Ark lest they fell dead on the spot, while the Kaaba can be touched without any risk, which every Muslim does.

    So this alleged continuity, doesn't have anything to do with truth, IMHO.

    Infact, to assert that these rites where the continuation of something which preceded Islam and was canonical is false if we accept that the Torah describes the prescribed rites of the Jews. On the other hand, if, from a perfectly valid conspiracy-theory point of view, we assume your descrition as a confirmation of the link, the whole becomes much more intriguing.

    Infact, Baal is the son of Dagon in the Canaanite tale, and he kills the son of El. More canonically, the God of the Jews orders Baal's altars destroyed in the Torah...

    From the awful Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal

    At first the name Baal was used by the Jews for their God without discrimination, but as the struggle between the two religions developed, the name Baal was given up in Judaism as a thing of shame, and even names like Jerubbaal were changed to Jerubbesheth: Hebrew bosheth means "shame". Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary (1976) ISBN 0-310-23560-X
    Since Ba‘al simply means 'Lord', there is no obvious reason why it could not be applied to Yahweh as well as other gods. Perhaps it was. The judge Gideon was also called Jerubaal, a name which seems to mean 'Ba‘al strives' though Judges 6.32 makes the claim that the name was given to mock the god Ba‘al, whose shrine Gideon had destroyed, the intention being to imply: "Let Ba‘al strive as much as he can ... it will come to nothing."

    After Gideon's death, according to Judges 8.33, the Israelites went astray and started to worship the Ba‘alîm (the Ba‘als) especially Ba‘al Berith ("Lord of the Covenant.") A few verses later (Judges 9.4) the story turns to all the citizens of Shechem — actually kol-ba‘alê šəkem another case of normal use of ba‘al not applied to a deity. These citizens of Shechem support Abimelech's attempt to become king by giving him 70 shekels from the House of Ba‘al Berith. It is hard to disassociate this Lord of the Covenant who is worshipped in Shechem from the covenant at Shechem described earlier in Joshua 24.25 in which the people agree to worship Yahweh. It is especially hard to do so when Judges 9.46 relates that all "the holders of the tower of Shechem" (kol-ba‘alê midgal-šəkem) enter bêt ’ēl bərît 'the House of El Berith', that is, 'the House of God of the Covenant'. Was Ba‘al then here just a title for El? Or did the covenant of Shechem perhaps originally not involve El at all but some other god who bore the title Ba‘al? Or were there different viewpoints about Yahweh, some seeing him as an aspect of Hadad, some as an aspect of El, some with other theories? Again, there is no clear answer.

    One also finds Eshbaal (one of Saul's sons) and Beeliada (a son of David). The last name also appears as Eliada. This might show that at some period Ba‘al and El were used interchangeably even in the same name applied to the same person. More likely a later hand has cleaned up the text. Editors did play around with some names, sometimes substuting the form bosheth 'abomination' for ba‘al in names, whence the forms Ishbosheth instead of Eshbaal and Mephibosheth which is rendered Meribaal in 1 Chronicles 9.40. 1 Chronicles 12:5 mentions the name Bealiah (more accurately bə‘’alyâ) meaning "Yahweh is Ba‘al."

    It is difficult to determine to what extent the false worship which the prophets stigmatize is the worship of Yahweh under a conception and with rites which treated him as a local nature god or whether particular features of gods more often given the title Ba‘al were consciously recognized to be distinct from Yahwism from the first. Certainly some of the Ugaritic texts and Sanchuniathon report hostility between El and Hadad, perhaps representing a cultic and religious differences reflected in Hebrew tradition also, in which Yahweh in the Tanach is firmly identified with El and might be expected to be somewhat hostile to Ba’al/Hadad and the deities of his circle. But for Jeremiah and the Deuteronomist it also appears to be monotheism against polytheism (Jeremiah 11.12):

    Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go and cry to the gods to whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble. For according to the number of your cities are your gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem you have set up altars to the abominination, altars to burn incense to the Ba‘al.

    Does this refer to other gods and one particular god, perhaps Hadad, who is especially "the Ba‘al"? Or does it refer to altars to burn incense to "the Ba‘al" to which each altar is raised, that is to as many different Ba‘al's as there were altars?
    Last edited by Ummon; October 12, 2006 at 01:48 PM.

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    sephodwyrm's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Oh, a new tactic. Accuse Islam of paganism and satanism...
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Quote Originally Posted by sephodwyrm
    Oh, a new tactic. Accuse Islam of paganism and satanism...
    He's not accusing.

    Good post.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Satan is the Father of Lies. Do you know a bigger lie than to try to pass as God? From an entirely theorical point of view, that is...

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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Actually Ummon equates the worship of Baal to a rites of the Hajj.

    The worship of Baal usually requires his idol to be present.
    So you might need to explain the absolute hatred of material representation of God in Islam?

    Do you know a bigger lie than to try to pass as God?
    To say that there is no God, and that some humans being more fit to own the earth than others.
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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Quote Originally Posted by sephodwyrm
    Actually Ummon equates the worship of Baal to a rites of the Hajj.
    I am comparing them. Don't Gnostics have the right of a say on what is the true religion? Or is this right limited to other cults?

    Quote Originally Posted by sephodwyrm
    The worship of Baal usually requires his idol to be present.
    So you might need to explain the absolute hatred of material representation of God in Islam?
    Actually, if an identity conflict over who is God arises, given the transcendent nature of God, nobody in his right mind would try to pass as God by prescribing Idols. Infact, nothing forces enemies to keep using the same strategy.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephodwyrm
    To say that there is no God,
    Well, that is not what I am saying, and nobody here says it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephodwyrm
    and that some humans being more fit to own the earth than others.
    That is what is said in the Qu'ran.

  9. #9
    sephodwyrm's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Dude, here's your question:
    Do you know a bigger lie than to try to pass as God?
    Here's my answer:
    To say that there is no God,
    And here's your response:
    Well, that is not what I am saying, and nobody here says it.
    So you are trying to pass as God? Gimme a break.

    That is what is said in the Qu'ran.
    Shiish...

    Surat Al'Baqara, 179
    YUSUFALI: In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Quote Originally Posted by sephodwyrm
    Dude, here's your question:

    Here's my answer:

    And here's your response:

    So you are trying to pass as God? Gimme a break.
    Ehm, no, not really. One wonders how that could enter your mind. But anyway, if you wish, I am flattered, but no, really I ain't God. Please do not drive this thread off topic though, I do not forbid you to divagate and troll a bit, I merely suggest that you do it as little as you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephodwyrm
    Shiish...

    Surat Al'Baqara, 179
    I am smiling currently. The Law of Equality, indeed. That must mean... What, exactly?

    Besides, if I really must, I will quote something with an absolutely opposite meaning. But tomorrow, as I have to rest after work, sometimes. The sixth day, generally...
    Last edited by Ummon; October 12, 2006 at 02:46 PM.

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    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Just a quick comment. I noticed a Da Vinci Code-esque reference to Leonardo da Vinci, gnosticism and alchemy. This is one of those many points where Dan Brown simply got it wrong - there is no evidence that Leonardo (or as Dan Brown calls him, 'da Vinci') was a gnostic, and he actually wrote a treatise Against the Alchemists. Don't believe everything you read in popular fiction, kids.

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    I would say: no. There's popular knowledge and what passes as non-popular knowledge but is infact popular knowledge. It is very likely that Leonardo was some sort of heretic, and there are plenty of evidences that he may have been a Gnostic, though a 100 page thread is not one of my goals currently.

    I absolutely never listen to pop culture. This doesn't mean that there's no reason to say what I said about Leonardo.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTitusPullo
    Finally, Allah is not the name of God. It's an Arabic word which means God (in English( and Elohim (in Hebrew). It just mean He who has the Godhood which is the power to create the entities. His names are actually :

    Ar-Rahmaan , Ar-Rahim , Al-Malik , Al-Quddus and so on. LINK
    Using many names is another habit of that someone I was speaking about, as opposed to using one, a custom of the Torah's God. Between others, this principle of darkness uses:

    Ahriman, Ahryman: Mazdaic "evil ghost"

    Azazel, Asael (Hebrew): King of Devils

    Baal

    Baphomet: supposedly worshipped by the Knights Templar

    Beelzebub, Beelsebul (Hebrew): Master of the flies

    Belial, Beliar, Bheliar (Hebrew): without master, despicableness of the earth

    Dagon: Philistian revenge devil of the sea

    Father of Lies and Deceit

    Lord of This World

    Lucifer (Greek and Roman): bringer of light, illuminator

    Satan, Schaitan (Hebrew): adversary, prosecutor

    Sammael, Samiel, Sammael (Hebrew): “Poison of God”

    Yaldabaoth: the Gnostic devil, though not explicitly evil.

    Yam

    I have boldened the names which I am later going to discuss more thoroughly.

    Notice that as Satan is adversary and prosecutor, John's Parakletos means: defender, advocate. So until now, John seems to be confirming our Gnostic stance a bit. There are aspects of the divine in conflict.
    Last edited by Ummon; October 12, 2006 at 04:12 PM.

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    As a sidenote:

    Freedom and the Rule of Equality in Islam

    Freedom is Fitnah

    The Order to fight until there is no more Fitnah




    Allah then commanded fighting the disbelievers when He said:


    ﴿حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ﴾


    (...until there is no more Fitnah) meaning, Shirk. This is the opinion of Ibn `Abbas, Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ar-Rabi`, Muqatil bin Hayyan, As-Suddi and Zayd bin Aslam.


    Allah's statement:


    ﴿وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ للَّهِ﴾


    (...and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone).) means, `So that the religion of Allah becomes dominant above all other religions.' It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari said: "The Prophet was asked, `O Allah's Messenger! A man fights out of bravery, and another fights to show off, which of them fights in the cause of Allah' The Prophet said:


    «مَنْ قَاتَلَ لِتَكُونَ كَلِمَةُ اللهِ هِيَ الْعُلْيا فَهُوَ فِي سَبِيلِ الله»


    (He who fights so that Allah's Word is superior, then he fights in Allah's cause.) In addition, it is reported in the Two Sahihs:


    «أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَقُولُوا لَا إِلهَ إلَّا اللهُ، فَإِذَا قَالُوهَا عَصَمُوا مِنِّي دِمَاءَهُم وَأَمْوَالَهُمْ إلَّا بِحَقِّهَا وَحِسَابُهُمْ عَلَى الله»


    (I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people until they proclaim, `None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. Whoever said it, then he will save his life and property from me, except for cases of the law, and their account will be with Allah.)


    Allah's statement:


    ﴿فَإِنِ انتَهَواْ فَلاَ عُدْوَنَ إِلاَّ عَلَى الظَّـلِمِينَ﴾


    (But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against the wrongdoers.) indicates that, `If they stop their Shirk and fighting the believers, then cease warfare against them. Whoever fights them afterwards will be committing an injustice. Verily aggression can only be started against the unjust.' This is the meaning of Mujahid's statement that only combatants should be fought. Or, the meaning of the Ayah indicates that, `If they abandon their injustice, which is Shirk in this case, then do not start aggression against them afterwards.' The aggression here means retaliating and fighting them, just as Allah said:


    ﴿فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ﴾


    (Then whoever transgresses against you, you transgress likewise against him.) (2:194)


    Similarly, Allah said:


    ﴿وَجَزَآءُ سَيِّئَةٍ سَيِّئَةٌ مِّثْلُهَا﴾


    (The recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof.) (42:40), and:


    ﴿وَإِنْ عَاقَبْتُمْ فَعَاقِبُواْ بِمِثْلِ مَا عُوقِبْتُمْ بِهِ﴾


    (And if you punish them, then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. ) (16:126)


    `Ikrimah and Qatadah stated, "The unjust person is he who refuses to proclaim, `There is no God worthy of worship except Allah'.''


    Under Allah's statement:


    ﴿وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ﴾


    (And fight them until there is no more Fitnah) Al-Bukhari recorded that Nafi` said that two men came to Ibn `Umar during the conflict of Ibn Az-Zubayr and said to him, "The people have fallen into shortcomings and you are the son of `Umar and the Prophet's Companion. Hence, what prevents you from going out'' He said, "What prevents me is that Allah has for bidden shedding the blood of my (Muslim) brother.'' They said, "Did not Allah say:


    ﴿وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ﴾


    (And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah))'' He said, "We did fight until there was no more Fitnah and the religion became for Allah Alone. You want to fight until there is Fitnah and the religion becomes for other than Allah!''


    `Uthman bin Salih added that a man came to Ibn `Umar and asked him, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! What made you perform Hajj one year and `Umrah another year and abandon Jihad in the cause of Allah, although you know how much He has encouraged performing it'' He said, "O my nephew! Islam is built on five (pillars): believing in Allah and His Messenger, the five daily prayers, fasting Ramadan, paying the Zakah and performing Hajj (pilgrimage) to the House.'' They said, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! Did you not hear what Allah said in His Book:


    ﴿وَإِن طَآئِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُواْ فَأَصْلِحُواْ بَيْنَهُمَا فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الأُخْرَى فَقَـتِلُواْ الَّتِى تَبْغِى حَتَّى تَفِىءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ﴾


    (And if two parties (or groups) among the believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them both. But if one of them outrages against the other, then fight you (all) against the one that which outrages till it complies with the command of Allah.) (49:9) and:


    ﴿وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ﴾


    (And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief))


    He said, "That we did during the time of Allah's Messenger when Islam was still weak and (the Muslim) man used to face trials in his religion, such as killing or torture. When Islam became stronger (and apparent), there was no more Fitnah.'' He asked, "What do you say about `Ali and `Uthman'' He said, "As for `Uthman, Allah has forgiven him. However, you hated the fact that Allah had forgiven him! As for `Ali, he is the cousin of Allah's Messenger and his son-in-law.'' He then pointed with his hand, saying, "This is where his house is located (meaning, `so close to the Prophet's house just as `Ali was so close to the Prophet himself').''


    ﴿الشَّهْرُ الْحَرَامُ بِالشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ وَالْحُرُمَـتُ قِصَاصٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ ﴾


    (194. The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of equality (Qisas). Then whoever transgresses against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with Al-Muttaqin.)
    Therefore it is legitimate for a muslim to attack unbelievers and democracies as well.

    Back on topic:

    Baal Cycle Text
    Now Mighty Baal, son of Dagon, desired the kingship of the Gods. He contended with Prince Yam-Nahar, the Son of El. But Kindly El, Father Shunem, decided the case in favour of His son; He gave the kingship to Prince Yam. He gave the power to Judge Nahar.
    Fearsome Yam came to rule the Gods with an iron fist. He caused Them to labor and toil under His reign. They cried unto Their mother, Asherah, Lady of the Sea. They convinced Her to confront Yam, to interceed in Their behalf.
    Asherah went into the presence of Prince Yam. She came before Judge Nahar. She begged that He release His grip upon the Gods Her sons. But Mighty Yam declined Her request. She offered favours to the Tyrant. But Powerful Nahar softened not His heart.
    Finally, Kindly Asherah, who loves Her children, offered Herself to the God of the Sea. She offered Her own body to the Lord of Rivers.
    Yam-Nahar agreed to this, and Asherah returned to the Source of the Two Rivers. She went home to the court of El. She came before the Divine Council, and spoke of Her plan to the Gods Her children.
    Baal was infuriated by Her speech. He was angered at the Gods who would allow such a plot. He would not consent to surrendering Great Asherah to the Tyrant Yam-Nahar. He swore to the Gods that He would destroy Prince Yam. He would lay to rest the tyranny of Judge Nahar.
    Yam-Nahar was made aware of the words of Baal. He sent His two messengers to the court of El:
    "Depart Lads!
    Do not sit!
    Then Ye shall surely set face
    Toward the Convocation of the Assembly
    In the midst of the mountain of Night.
    At the feet of El do not fall,
    Do not prostrate Yourselves before the Convocation of the Assembly,
    But declare Your information!
    And say to The Bull, My father, El,
    Declare to the Convocation of the Assembly:

    'The message of Yam, Your Lord,
    Of Your master Judge River:
    Give up, O Gods, Him whom You harbor,
    Him whom the multitude harbor!
    Give up Baal and His partisans,
    Dagon's Son, so that I may inherit His gold!'"

    The lads depart
    They do not Sit.
    Then They set face
    Toward the Mountain of Night,
    Toward the Convocation of the Assembly.
    The Gods had not even sat down,
    The Deities to dine,
    When Baal stood up by El.
    As soon as the Gods saw Them,
    Saw the messengers of Yam
    The emissaries of Judge Nahar,
    The Gods lowered Their heads upon Their knees.
    Yea, upon the thrones of Their lordships.
    Baal rebukes Them:
    "Why, O Gods, have Ye lowered
    Your heads on top of Your knees,
    Yea, upon the thrones of Your lordships?

    Let a pair of Gods read the tablets of the messengers of Yam,
    Of the emissaries of Judge Nahar!
    O Gods, lift up Your heads
    From the top of Your knees
    Yea, from the thrones of Your lordships!

    And I shall answer
    The messengers of Yam
    The emissaries of Judge Nahar!"
    The Gods lift Their heads
    From the top of Their knees
    Yea, from the thrones of thier lordships.

    After there arrive the messengers of Yam,
    The emissaries of JudgeNahar.
    At the feet of El They do not fall,

    They do not prostrate Themselves before the Convocation of the Assembly.
    Arise, for They declare Their information.

    A fire, two fires!
    He sees a burnished sword!
    They say to The Bull, His father, El:
    "The message of Yam, Your lord,
    Of Your master, Judge Nahar:

    'Give up, O Gods, Him whom Ye harbor,
    Him whom the multitudes harbor!
    Give up Baal and His partisans,
    Dagon's Son, so that I may inherit His gold!'"

    And The Bull, His father, El, replies:
    "Baal is Thy slave, O Yam!
    Baal is Thy slave O Yam!
    Dagon's Son is Thy captive!
    He will bring Thy tribute like the Gods.
    Like the Deities, Thy gift!"

    But Prince Baal was infuriated.
    A knife He takes in the hand
    A dagger in the right hand.
    To smite the lads He flourishes it.
    Anath siezes His right hand,
    Astarte seizes His left hand:

    "How canst Thou smite the messengers of Yam?
    The emissaries of Judge Nahar?
    They have merely brought the words of Yam-Nahar.
    Word of Their Lord and Master."

    But Prince Baal is infuriated. He spares the lives of the messengers; He sends Them back to Their master. He instructs Them to give His information: Baal will not bow to Prince Yam. He will not be the slave of Judge Nahar. He declares once more that He shall slay the Tyrant lord of the Gods.

    "To the earth let Our mighty one fall!
    Yea, to dust Our strong one!"
    From His mouth the word had not yet gone forth,
    Nor from His lips, His utterance.
    And His voice was given forth
    Like a mountain under the throne of Prince Yam.
    And Kothar-u-Khasis declared:
    "Did I not tell Thee, O Prince Baal,
    Nor declare, O Rider of Clouds?
    'Lo, Thine enemies, O Baal,
    Lo, Thine enemies wilt Thou smite
    Lo, Thou wilt vanquish Thy foes.
    Thou wilt take Thine eternal kingdom;
    Thine everlasting sovereignty!'"

    Kothar brings down two clubs
    And proclaims Their Names.
    "Thy Name, even Thine, is Yagrush!
    Yagrush, expel Yam
    Expel Yam from His throne
    Nahar from the seat of His sovereignty!

    Thou shalt swoop from the hands of Baal
    Like an Eagle from His fingers!
    Strike the shoulders of Prince Yam
    Twixt the hands of Judge Nahar!"

    The club swoops from the hands of Baal
    Like an eagle from His fingers.
    It strikes the shoulders of Prince Yam,
    Twixt the hands of Judge Nahar.
    Yam is strong;
    He is not vanquished,
    His joints do not fail,
    Nor His frame collapse.

    Kothar brings down a second club,
    And proclaims His Name.
    "Thy Name, even Thine, is Aymur!
    Aymur, drive Yam,
    Drive Yam from His throne!
    Nahar from His seat of His sovereignty!

    Thou shalt swoop from the hands of Baal
    Like an Eagle from His fingers!
    Strike the head of Prince Yam
    Twixt the eyes of Judge Nahar!
    Let Yam sink
    And fall to the earth!"

    And the club swoops from the hands of Baal
    Like an eagle from His fingers.
    It strikes the head of Prince Yam,
    Twixt the eyes of Judge Nahar.

    Yam sinks,
    Falls to the earth.
    His joints fail
    His frame collapses.
    Baal drags and poises Yam
    Destroys Judge Nahar.

    By Name, Astarte rebukes:
    "Shmae, O Aliyan Baal,
    Shame, O Rider of the Clouds!
    For Prince Yam was Our captive
    For Judge River was Our captive."

    And there went out Baal,
    Verily ashamed is Aliyan Baal
    And Prince Yam is, indeed, dead.
    So let Baal reign!

    Baal was now King of the Gods. Lord of the Mountain of Saphon. But Baal
    had no palace like the other Gods. He speaks His word to Kothat-u-Khasis:

    "There are the dwelling of El,
    The shelter of His sons.
    The dwelling of Lady Asherah of the Sea,
    The dwelling of the renowned brides.
    The dwelling of Pidray, girl of Light,
    The shelter of Tallay, girl of rain,
    The dwelling of Arsay, girl of Yaabdar.

    Also, something else I'll tell Thee.
    Go to!
    Beseech Lady Asherah of the Sea,
    Entreat the Creatress of Gods!"

    The Skilled One goes up to the bellows.
    In the hands of Khasis are the tongs.
    He pours silver,
    He casts gold.
    He pours silver by thousands of shekels,
    Gold He pours by myriads.

    A glorious crown studded with silver,
    Adorned with red gold.
    A glorious throne,
    A dais above a glorious footstool,
    Which glisters in purity.
    Glorious shoes of reception,
    Thereover He brings them gold.

    A glorious table that is full.
    A glorious bowl, fine work of Kamares,
    Set like the realm of Yam,
    In which there are buffaloes by myriads.

    Kothar-u-Kasis goes to the Lady Asherah of the Sea, Mother of the Seventy Gods. He offers these gifts unto Her.

    He adorns Her with the covering of Her flesh.
    She tears Her clothing.
    On the second day
    He adorns Her in the two rivers.
    She sets a pot on the fire
    A vessel on top of the coals.

    She propitiates The Bull, God of Mercy,
    Entreats the Creator of Creatures.
    On lifting Her eyes
    She sees.

    Asherah sees Baal's going,
    Yea the going of the Virgin Anath,
    The tread of the Progenitress of Heroes.

    After Aliyan Baal came,
    And came the Virgin Anath,
    They besought Lady Asherah of the Sea.
    Yea entreated the Creatress of the Gods.
    And Lady Asherah of the Sea replied:
    "How can Ye beseech Lady Asherah of the Sea,
    Yea entreat the Creatress of the Gods?
    Have Ye besought The Bull, God of Mercy,
    Or entreated the Creator of Creatures?

    And the Virgin Anath replied:
    "We do beseech Lady Asherah of the Sea.
    We entreat the Creatress of Gods.
    The Gods eat and drink,
    And those that suck the breast quaff
    With a keen knife
    A slice of fatling.
    They drink wine from a goblet,
    From a cup of gold, the blood of vines."

    Asherah of the Sea declares:
    "Saddle an ass,
    Hitch a donkey!
    Put on a harness of silver,
    Trappings of gold.
    Prepare the harness of My jennies!

    Qadish-u-Amrar hearkens.
    He saddles an ass
    Hitches a donkey.
    Put on a harness of silver,
    Trappings of gold.

    Prepares the harness of Her jennies!
    Qadish-u-Amrar embraces;
    He sets Asherah on the back of the ass,
    On the beautiful back of the donkey.
    Qadish begins to light the way,
    Even Amrar like a star.
    Forward goes the Virgin Anath,
    And Baal departs for the heights of Saphon.
    Then She sets face toward El,
    At the sources of the Two Rivers,
    In the midst of the streams of the Two Deeps.
    She enters the abode of El,
    And comes into the domicile of the King, Father Shunem.
    At the feet of El She bows and falls,
    She prostrates Herself and honors Him.

    As soon as El sees Her,
    He cracks a smile and laughs.
    His feet He sets on the footstool,
    And twiddles His fingers.
    He lifts His voice
    And shouts:
    "Why has Lady Asherah of the Sea come?
    Why came the Creatress of Gods?
    Art Thou hungry?
    Then have a morsel!
    Or art Thou thirsty?
    Then have a drink!
    Eat!
    Or drink!

    Eat bread from the tables!
    Drink wine from the goblets!
    From a cup of gold, the blood of vines!
    If the love of El moves Thee,
    Yea the affection of The Bull arouses Thee!"

    And Lady Asherah of the Sea replies:
    "Thy word, El, is wise;
    Thou art wise unto eternity;
    Lucky life is Thy word.
    Our king is Aliyan Baal,
    Out judge, and none is above Him.
    Let both of Us drain His chalice;
    Both of Us drain His cup!"

    Loudly Bull-El, Her father, shouts,
    King El who brought Her into being;
    There shout Asherah and Her sons,
    The Goddess and the band of Her brood:

    "Lo there is no house unto Baal like the Gods.
    Not a court like the sons of Asherah:
    The dwelling of El,
    The shelter of His sons.
    The dwelling of Lady Asherah of the Sea,
    The dwelling of the renowned brides.
    The dwelling of Pidray, girl of Light.
    The shelter of Tallay, girl of rain.
    The dwelling of Arsay, girl of Yaabdar."
    And the God of Mercy replied:
    "Am I to act as a lackey of Asherah?
    Am I to act like the holder of a trowel?
    If the handmaid of Asherah will make the bricks
    A house shall be built for Baal like the Gods.
    Yea a court like the sons of Asherah."
    And Lady Asherah of the Sea replied:
    "Thou art great, O El,
    Thou are verily wise!
    The gray of Thy beard hath verily instructed Thee!
    Here are pectorals of gold for Thy breast.

    Lo, also it is the time of His rain.
    Baal sets the season,
    And gives forth His voice from the clouds.
    He flashes lightning to the earth.
    As a house of cedars let Him complete it,
    Or a house of bricks let Him erect it!
    Let it be told to Aliyan Baal:
    'The mountains will bring Thee much silver.
    The hills, the choicest of gold;
    The mines will bring Thee precious stones,
    And build a house of silver and gold.
    A house of lapis gems!'"

    The Virgin Anath rejoices.
    She jumps with the feet
    And leaves the earth.
    Then She sets face toward the Lord of Saphon's crest
    By the thousand acres,
    Yea the myriad hectares.
    The Virgin Anath laughs.
    She lifts Her voice
    And shouts:

    "Be informed, Baal!
    Thy news I bring!
    A house shall be built for Thee as for Thy brothers,
    Even as a court as for Thy kin!
    The mountains will bring Thee much silver.
    The hills, the choicest of gold;
    The mines will bring Thee precious stones,
    And build a house of silver and gold.
    A house of lapis gems!"

    Aliyan Baal rejoices.
    The mountains bring Him much silver,
    The mines bring Him precious stones.
    Kothar-u-Khasis is sent.
    After Kothar-u-Khasis arrived,
    He sets an ox in front of Him.
    A fatling directly before Him.
    A chair is placed,
    And He is seated
    At the right of Aliyan Baal,
    Until They have eaten
    And drunk.

    And Aliyan Baal declares:
    "Hurry, let a house be built.
    Hurry, let a palace be erected!
    Hurry, let a house be built.
    Hurry, let a palace be erected
    In the midst of the heights of Saphon!
    A thousand acres the house is to comprise,
    A myriad hectares, the palace!"
    And Kothar-u-Khasis declares:
    "Hear, O Aliyan Baal!
    Percieve, O Rider of Clouds!
    I shall surely put a window in the house,
    A casement in the midst of the palace!"

    And Aliyan Baal replies:
    "Do not put a window in the house,
    A casement in the midst of the palace!
    Let not Pidray, girl of Light,
    Nor Tallay, girl of rain,
    Be seen by El's beloved Yam Nahar!"
    The Lord reviles and spits.

    And Kothar-u-Khasis replies:
    "Thou wilt return, Baal, to My word."

    Of ceders His house is to be built,
    Of bricks is His palace to be erected.
    He goes to Lebabob and it's trees,
    To Syria and the choicest of it's cedars.
    Lo, Lebanon and it's trees,
    Syria and it's cedars.

    Fire is set on the house,
    Flame on the palace.
    Behold a day and a second,
    The fire eats into the house,
    The flame into the palace.
    A fifth, a sixth day,
    The fire eats into the house,
    The flame in the midst of the palace.

    Behold, on the seventh day,
    The fire departs from the house,
    The flame from the palace.
    Silver turns from blocks,
    Gold is turned from bricks.

    Aliyan Baal rejoices.
    "My house have I built of silver.
    My palace of gold have I made."

    His house, Baal prepairs.
    Hadad prepares the housewarming of His palace.
    He slaughters great and small cattle
    He fells oxen and ram-fatlings.

    Yearling calves,
    Little lambs and kids.
    He called His brothers into His house.
    His kinsmen into the midst of His palace.
    He called the Seventy sons of Asherah.
    He caused the sheep Gods to drink wine.
    He caused the ewe Goddesses to drink wine.
    He cause the bull Gods to drink wine.
    He caused the cow Goddesses to drink wine.
    He caused the throne Gods to drink wine.
    He caused the chair Goddesses to drink wine.
    He caused the jar Gods to drink wine.
    He caused the jug Goddesses to drink wine.
    Until the Gods had eaten and drunk,
    And the sucklings quaffed
    With a keen knife
    A slice of fatling.
    They drink wine from a goblet,
    From a cup of gold, the blood of vines.

    Lord Baal went on to take possesion of many earthly cities. Sixty-six, Seventy-Seven towns He took. Eighty, Ninety was the total number of cities that fell to the posession of Mighty Hadad. Thus Baal returned to His home as Lord of all the World.

    As Baal went into the midst of the house
    Aliyan Baal declared:
    "I would install, Kothar, son of the Sea,
    Yea Kothar, son of the assembly!

    Let a casement be opened in the house;
    A window in the midst of the palace,
    And let the clouds be opened with rain
    On the opening of Kothar-u-Khasis."

    Kothar-u-Khasis laughed.
    He lifts His voice
    And shouts:
    "Did I not tell Thee, O Aliyan Baal,
    That Thou wouldst return, Baal, to My word?
    Let a casement be opened in the house,
    A window in the midst of the palace!"

    Baal opened the clouds with rain,
    His holy voice He gives forth in the heavens.

    The enemies of Baal seize the forests,
    The foes of Hadad, the fringes of the mountain.
    And Aliyan Baal declares:
    "Enemies of Hadad, why do Ye invade?
    Why do Ye invade the arsenal of Our defense?"
    Weeping, Baal returns to His house:
    "Whether king
    Or commander
    Be invested with sovereignty over the land,
    Respects I shall not send to Mavet,
    Nor greetings to El's beloved, the Hero!"

    Mavet calls from His throat,
    The Beloved meditates in His inwards:
    "I alone am He who will rule over the Gods.
    Yea command Gods and men.
    Even dominate the multitudes of the earth."

    Aloud Baal cries to His lads:
    "Look, Gupan and Ugar, sons of Galmat,
    Errand lads, sons of Zalmat
    The lofty and distinguished!
    Then surely set face
    Toward the mountain of Tergezz,
    Toward the mountain of Shermeg,
    Toward the furrow of the thriving of the earth.
    Lift the mountain on the hands,
    The hill on top of the palms,
    And go down into to nether-reaches of the earth
    So that You will be counted amoung those who go down into the earth!
    Then shall Ye set face
    Toward His city, Hemry.
    Lo, the throne on which He sits
    In the midst of the land of His inheritance
    And the guards of the defense of the Gods.

    Do not draw near the God Mavet,
    Lest He make You like a lamb in His mouth,
    Like a kid in His jaws Ye be crushed!
    The Torch of the Gods, Shapash, burns;
    The heavens halt on account of El's darling, Mavet.

    By the thousand acres,
    Yea the myriad hectares
    At the feet of Mavet bow and fall.
    Prostrate Yourselves and honor Him!
    And say to the God Mavet,
    Declare to El's beloved, the Hero:

    And Baal spoke His word to His lads. He sent His message to Mavet. The Lord Hadad refused to pay tribute to the Beloved of El. Mavet was enfuriated, and sent His word back to Baal. He declared that, because Baal had destroyed the Serpent Lotan, He would exact revenge by devouring Baal. The messengers of Baal informed Baal that Mavet would open His mouth wide.

    "A lip to earth,
    A lip to heaven,
    And a tounge to the stars
    So that Baal may enter His inwards,
    Yea, descend into His mouth
    As scorched is the olive,
    The produce of the Earth,
    And the fruit of the Trees."

    Aliyan Baal fears Him,
    The Rider of the Clouds dreads Him.
    "Depart! Speak to the God Mavet.
    Declare to El's Beloved, the Hero:
    The message of Aliyan Baal,
    The word of Aliy the Warrior:

    'Hail, O God Mavet!
    Thy slave am I,
    Yea Thine forever.'"

    The Gods depart and do not sit.
    Then They set face toward the God Mavet.
    Toward His city, Hemry.
    Behold it is the throne of His sitting,
    Yea the land of His inheritance!
    They lift Their voices
    And shout:

    "The message of Aliyan Baal
    The word of Aliy the Warrior!
    "Hail, O God Mavet!
    Thy slave am I,
    Yea Thine forever!"

    The God Mavet is glad. Baal will be delivered unto Him, and the fertility of the land will die with Him. Baal feasts His last meal, and Mavet commands Him:

    "I shall put Him in the grave of the Gods of the earth.
    And Thou, take Thy clouds,
    Thy wind, Thy storm, Thy rains!
    With Thee Thy seven lads,
    Thine eight swine.
    With Thee, Pidray, girl of Light,
    With Thee, Tallay, girl of rain.
    Then Thy face shalt Thou set toward the mountain of Kenkeny.
    Lift the mountain on the hands,
    The hill on top of the palms,
    And go down to the nether reaches of the earth
    So that Thou mayest be counted amoung those who do down into the earth,
    And all may know that Thou art dead!"

    Aliyan Baal hearkens.
    He loves a heifer in Deber,
    A young cow in the fields of Shechelmemet.
    He lies with Her seventy-seven times,
    Yea, eighty-eight times,
    So that She conceives
    And bears Moshe.

    Baal was found dead there in the fields of Shechelmemet, in the land of Deber. The news reaches the ears of El, Father of Shunem:

    Thereupon the God of Mercy
    Goes down from the throne,
    Sits on the footstool,
    And from the footstool sits on the earth.

    He pours the ashes of grief on His head,
    The dust of wallowing on His pate.
    For clothing, He is covered with a doubled cloak.
    He roams the mountain in mourning,
    Yea through the forest in grief.

    He cuts cheek and chin,
    He lacerates His forearms.
    He plows His chest like a garden;
    Like a vale He lacerates His back.
    He lifts His voice
    And shouts:
    "Baal is dead!
    Woe to the people of Dagon's son!
    Woe to the multitudes of Athar-Baal!
    I shall go down into the earth."
    Also Anath goes
    And treads every mountain to the midst of the Earth.
    Every hill to the midst of the fields.
    She comes to the goodness of the land of Deber,
    The beauty of the fields of Shechelmemet.
    She comes upon Baal prostrate on the earth.

    For clothing She is covered with a doubled cloak.
    The mountain in mournig She roams.
    In grief, through the forest.
    She cuts cheek and chin.
    She lacerates Her forearms.
    She plows lake a garden Her chest,
    Like a vale She lacerates the back.
    "Baal is dead!

    Woe to the people of Dagon's son!
    Woe to the multitudes of Athar-Baal!
    Let us go down into the earth."

    With Her goes down the Torch of the Gods, Shapash.
    Until She is sated with weeping,
    She drinks tears like wine.
    Aloud She cries to the Torch of the Gods, Shapash:
    "Load Aliyan Baal on to Me!"

    The Torch of the Gods, Shapash, hearkens.
    She lifts Aliyan Baal,
    On the shoulders of Anath She places Him,
    She raises Him into the heights of Saphon.
    She weeps for Him and buries Him.
    She puts Him in the grave of the Gods of the earth.

    She sacrifices seventy buffaloes
    As an offering for Aliyan Baal.
    She sacrifices seventy oxen
    As an offering for Aliyan Baal.
    She sacrifices seventy head of small cattle
    As an offering for Aliyan Baal.
    She sacrifices seventy deer
    As an offering for Aliyan Baal.
    She sacrifices seventy wild goats
    As an offering for Aliyan Baal.
    She sacrifices seventy asses
    As an offering for Aliyan Baal.

    Then She sets face toward El
    At the sources of the Two Rivers,
    In the midst of the streams of the Two Deeps.
    She enters the abode of El,
    Goes into the domicile of the King, Father Shunem.
    At the feet of El She bends and falls,
    Prostrates Herself and honors Him.

    She lifts Her voice
    And shouts:

    "Let Asherah and Her sons rejoice,
    The Goddess and the band of Her brood!
    For dead is Aliyan Baal,
    For Perished is the Prince, Lord of Earth!"
    Aloud cries El to Asherah of the Sea:
    "Hear, O Lady Asherah of the Sea!
    Give one of Thy sons that I may make Him king!"

    And Lady Asherah of the Sea replies:
    "Let Us make king one who knows how to govern!"

    And the God of Mercy declares:
    "One feeble of frame will not vie with Baal,
    Nor wield a spear against Dagon's son."

    When the parley is finished,
    Lady Asherah of the Sea declares:
    "Let Us make Ashtar the Terrible king!
    Let Ashtar the Terrible reign!"

    Thereupon Ashtar the Terrible
    Goes into the heights of Saphon
    That He may sit on the throne of Aliyan Baal.
    His feet do not reach the footstool,
    Nor does His head reach it's top.
    And Ashtar the Terrible says:
    "I cannot rule in the heights of Saphon!"
    Ashtar the Terrible goes down,
    Goes down from the throne of Aliyan Baal,
    That He may rule over all the grand earth.

    Anath goes now to face Mavet, the Darling of El, the Hero.

    As with the heart of a cow toward her calf,
    As with the heart of an ete toward her lamb,
    So is the heart of Anath toward Baal.
    She seizes Mavet, in ripping His garment.

    She closes in on Him, in tearing His clothes.
    She lifts Her voice
    And shouts:
    "Come, Mavet, yield My brother!"

    And the God Mavet replies:
    "What does Thou ask, O Virgin Anath?
    I was going,
    And roaming
    Every mountain to the midst of the earth,
    Every hill to the midst of the fields.
    A soul was missing amoung men,
    A soul of the multitudes of the earth.
    I arrived at the goodness of the land of Debar,
    The beauty of the fields of Shechelmemet.
    I met Aliyan Baal;
    I made Him like a lamb in My mouth.
    Like a kid in My jaws was He crushed."

    The Torch of the Gods, Shapash, glows,
    The heavens stop on account of the God Mavet.
    A day, two days pass.
    From days to months.

    The maiden Anath meets Him.
    As with the heart of a cow toward her calf,
    As with the heart of an ewe toward her lamb,
    So is the heart of Anath toward Baal.
    She siezes the God Mavet.

    With a sword She cleaves Him,
    With a pitchfork She winnows Him,
    With a fire She burns Him,
    In the millstones She grinds Him,
    In the fields She plants Him,
    So that the birds do not eat His flesh,
    Nor the fowl destroy His portion.
    Flesh calls to flesh.

    The Great El, Father Shunem, declares of the lost God Baal:

    "For perished is the Prince, Lord of Earth.
    And if Aliyan Baal is alive,
    And if the Prince, Lord of Earth, exists,
    In a dream of the God of Mercy,
    In a vision of the Creator of Creatures,
    Let the heavens rain oil,
    The wadies run with honey,
    That I may know that Aliyan Baal is alive,
    That the Prince, Lord of Earth, exists."

    In a dream of the God of Mercy,
    In a vision of the Creator of Creatures,
    The heavens rain oil,
    The wadies run with honey,
    The God of Mercy rejoices.
    His feet He sets on the footstool.
    He cracks a smile and laughs.

    He lifts His voice
    And shouts:
    "Let Me sit and rest,
    And let My soul repose in My breast.
    For Aliyan Baal is alive,
    For the Prince, Lord of Earth, exists."
    Aloud shouts El to the Virgin Anath:

    "Hear, O Virgin Anath,
    Say to the Torch of the Gods, Shapash:
    'Over the furrows of the fields, O Shapash,
    Over the furrows of the fields let El set Thee.
    As for the Lord of the Plowed Furrows,
    Where is Aliyan Baal?
    Where is the Prince, Lord of Earth?'"

    The Virgin Anath departs.
    Then She sets face toward the Torch of the Gods, Shapash.
    She lifts Her voice
    And shouts:

    "The message of Bull-El, Thy father,
    The word of the God of Mercy, Thy begetter:
    'Over the furrows of the fields, O Shapash,
    Over the furrows of the fields let El set Thee!
    As for the Lord of the Furrows of His plowing,
    Where is Aliyan Baal?
    Where is the Prince, Lord of Earth?'"

    And the Torch of the Gods, Shapash, replies:
    "I shall seek Aliyan Baal!"

    And the Virgin Anath answers:
    "As for Me, tis not I, O Shapash!
    As for Me, tis not I, but El summons Thee!
    May the Gods guard Thee in Sheol!"

    Shapash descends into the underworld. She enters the realm of Sheol. Upon Her return to the world above, She carries Great Baal with Her. Ball goes into the heights of Saphon. He confronts Mavet, the Hero.

    Baal seizes the son of Asherah.
    The great one He smites on the shoulder.
    The tyrant He smites with a stick.
    Mavet is vanquished,
    Reaches earth.

    Baal returns to the throne of His kingship,
    Dagon's son to the seat of His sovereignty.
    From days to months,
    From months to years,
    Lo in the seventh year.

    And the God Mavet addresses Himself to Aliyan Baal.
    He lifts His voice
    And shouts:

    "Because of Thee, O Baal, I have experienced humiliation.
    Because of Thee, experienced scattering by the sword.
    Because of Thee, experienced burning in the fire.
    Because of Thee, experienced grinding in the millstones.
    Because of Thee, experienced winnowing by the pitchfork.
    Because of Thee, experienced being planted in the feilds.
    Because of Thee, experienced being sown in the sea."

    Thereupon Mavet threatens to destroy Baal in revenge. He threatens to take the kingship of Baal. Baal expels Him, drives Him out of the heights of Saphon. Mavet vows His revenge eupon Baal:

    "And lo, as a brother of Yam Thou art made, Baal is given
    As retribution for the destroyed sons of My mother!"

    He returns to the Lord of the heights of Saphon,
    He lifts His voice
    And shouts:
    "A brother of Yam Thou art made, O Baal!
    As retribution for the destroyed sons of My mother!"

    They shake each other like Gemar-beasts,
    Mavet is strong, Baal is strong.
    They gore each other like buffaloes,
    Mavet is strong, Baal is strong.
    They bite like serpents,
    Mavet is strong, Baal is strong.
    They kick like racing beasts,
    Mavet is down, Ball is down.

    Up comes Shapash.
    She cries to Mavet:
    "Hear, O God Mavet!
    How canst Thou fight with Aliyan Baal?
    How will Bull-El, Thy father, not hear Thee?
    Will He not remove the supports of Thy throne?
    Nor upset the seat of Thy kingship?
    Nor break the scepter of Thy rule?"

    The Got Mavet is afraid,
    El's Beloved, the Hero, is frightened.
    Mavet is roused from His prstration.

    The God of Sterility submits to Baal. He conceeds the kingship to the Lord of Earth. Baal returns to the Heights of Saphon, but Anath does not go with Him. She turns Her anger to the enemies of Baal. To those who were fickle against Baal in His trials. The attacks mankind.

    Like the fruit of seven daughters,
    The scent of kids and anhb-animals,
    Both gates of Anath's house.

    And the lads chance upon the Lady of the Mountain.
    And lo, Anath smites in the valley,
    Fighting between the two cities.
    She smites the people of the seashore,
    Destroys mankind of the sunrise.
    Under Her are heads like vultures.

    Over Her are hands like locusts,
    Like thorns, the hands of troops.
    She piles up heads on Her back,
    She ties up hands in Her bundle.
    Knee-deep She plunges in the blood of soldiery,
    Up to the neck in the gore of troops.
    With a stick She drives out foes,
    Against the flank She draws Her bow.

    And lo, Anath reaches Her house,
    Yea the Goddess enters Her palace,
    But is not satisfied.
    She had smitten in the valley,
    Fought between the two cities.

    She hurls chairs at the troops,
    Hurling tables at the soldiers,
    Footstools at the heroes.
    Much She smites and looks,
    Fights and views.
    Anath gluts Her liver with laughter.
    Her heart is filled with joy,
    For Anath's hand is victory.
    For knee-deep She plunges in the blood of soldiery,
    Up to the neck in the gore of troops.
    Until She is sated She smites in the house,
    Fights between the two tables,
    Shedding the blood of soldiery.

    Pouring the oil of peace from a bowl,
    The Virgin Anath washes Her hands,
    The Progenitress of Heroes, Her fingers.
    She washes Her hands in the blood of soldiery,
    Her fingers in the gore of troops.

    Arranging portions by the chairs,
    Tables by the tables,
    Footstools She arranges by the footstools.
    She gathers water and washes
    With dew of heaven,
    Fat of earth,
    Rain of the Rider of Clouds,
    The dew that the heavens pour,
    The rain that the stars pour.
    The anhb-animals leap by the thousand acres,
    The zuh-fish in the sea, by the myriads of hectares.
    ________________________________________
    Ba´al Celebrates His Victory Over Yahm
    1. Athirat set her eye on; a thousand
    2. pitchers he takes of (new autumn) wine,
    3. ten thousand he mixes in - his mixture (D/G)/the mixing bowl (C).
    ALT: 16. barrels it holds, wine enough (Ga) 17.
    to be mixed in ten thousand portions. While he is mixing it, (Ga)
    4. One does rise, one chants and sings,
    5. cymbals in the hands of the minstrel;
    6. sings the youngster with a sweet voice
    7. over/of Baal in the Heights
    8. of Tsaphon, the North. Catches sight does Ba´al of
    9. his daughters, he sets his eye on Pidraya
    10. daughter of `Ar/mist/light; also on Talay
    a daughter of Rabb/showers/rain.
    Next installment: who is Dagon?
    Last edited by Ummon; October 13, 2006 at 11:59 AM.

  14. #14
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    Therefore it is legitimate for a muslim to attack unbelievers and democracies as well.
    Of course, as in self defence. That's what do not transgress mean. That's also what the Geneva Convention is all about.


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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    If democracy is fitnah and sirk, then even in offence.

  16. #16
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    If democracy is fitnah and sirk, then even in offence.
    The best for of defence is to offence. The prophet didn't wait for the Byzantines to attack Medinah but prepares to meet them somewhere near Tabuk. He understands that to let the Byzantines roam freely near the heasr of the Medinah government will be dangerous situation so he prepared for the muslims to meet them near the border between the two government

    If democracy (which I assume Western type of democracy) have the intention to destroy or villified Islam then it become legitimate for muslims to wage war, either through the call of arms or other forms, like typing on the internet for example. :tooth:


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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTitusPullo
    The best for of defence is to offence. The prophet didn't wait for the Byzantines to attack Medinah but prepares to meet them somewhere near Tabuk. He understands that to let the Byzantines roam freely near the heasr of the Medinah government will be dangerous situation so he prepared for the muslims to meet them near the border between the two government

    If democracy (which I assume Western type of democracy) have the intention to destroy or villified Islam then it become legitimate for muslims to wage war, either through the call of arms or other forms, like typing on the internet for example. :tooth:
    This is an argument based on intentions. Infact, this is what the Qu'ran says. Though sadly, intentions may be the consequence of actions, facts and ideas, and the aggressor thus is the first who makes resort to violent acts and ideas. And I'm afraid that in the history of West-Islam relationship, it has always been Islam.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    The possible connection of the caananite worship of Baal and Islam is a bit farfetched but it might actually be right; it wouldn't be the first time that a religion incorporates into it's practices a non-dogmatic practice in order to better absorb the local populace: the abundance of Saints that appear in the Catholic Church were, for a large part, "pagan" idols that were sanitized and christianised in order to transform age-old practices into catholic practices. That happened around the world with most dominating religions and it isn't a practice only found in Islam and Christianity, the abundance of Boddhisatvas is an example of religious hermetism.

    Anyway, I think the whole Gnostic approach is highly speculative/philosophical and less attached to the roles of "faith" as opposed to "logic" and therefore are somewhat hard to put into perspective with faith-based religions.
    Very good topic, if I may say so.
    浪人 - 二天一

  19. #19
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    I'm glad it was appreciated! :wink:

    The problem of quaternity and trinity: God and the Antimimon pneuma

    Gnosticism is indeed highly speculative. But it bases its speculations on observation of the processes of the human mind and spirit (or this is what gnostics think). Characteristic of Gnosticism is the assumption that what is Divine is composed by four parts.

    The problem of quaternity is ubiquitous in a certain kind of religious, historical, anthropological and mystical-magical literature.

    You may wish to consult the Squaring of the circle problem, by making a search on the web, as well as apocalyptic and theophantic visions in The Apocalypse of John, The Book of Revelations of Daniel and also apocrypha The Apocalypse of Baruch, the Book of Ezekiel and many other visions and dreams, from multiple traditions. The general form of the Buddhist Mandala for example (an image of the Divine too) is a square with a circle inside. Amerindian medicine wheels are analogues as well. In the I Ching, the male, light principle is a circle, the terrestrial, dark one is a square.

    In Ezekiel specifically, you have a description of God, as something which trascends human intellect and senses, but he is surrounded by four figures, four Cherubs who are the accessible aspect of Him. Paradise has also a place in the middle (where Ezekiel has this vision, and Daniel one which is very similar) that is square, and surrounded by four rivers.

    These rivers trace a link with my previous post as well, as Yam Nahar is the god of rivers and flowing waters, and the Son of El. Jesus, in Christian iconography is represented as having a river flowing off his spear-wound, too.

    In Jung's analysis of the concept of Quaternity, there is, explicitly quoted, the passage of the Timaeus I have posted in the thread about the Trinity, alongside a long dissertation on sources. Overall, we can say, that every group of four contained in mystical traditions through the world has these characteristics:

    One, Thesis
    Two, Antithesis
    Three, Reconcyles the Two
    Four, is of a different kind entirely

    As an example: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Mary
    Or: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Devil

    Together, a quaternity is a complete description of reality, or of an aspect of reality. Notice that quaternities may be completed by different aspects in the fourth place, but this because for example, both Mary and the Devil are examples of the earthly principle which is in God and from God. One is humble and submissive, and thus being holy gives life to the divine in nature, the other superb and evil, and thus opposes the will of God.

    The Devil, especially, is in itself another trinity, (and quaternity), as portrayed in Dante (three heads) in alchemy (Hermes is "the four-horned serpent"). He infact mocks God as well. As such he is named Antimimon Pneuma (the Spirit Who Imitates) in greek.

    More later.
    Last edited by Ummon; October 13, 2006 at 05:26 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Gnostic point of view: what is God? Is Allah God?

    Quite an interesting, although exhausting read, Ummon. You will find your due rep points in the mail.

    Like Manji, I think the connections in certain traditions in Islam with Baal-worshiping traditions are probable, yet somewhat far-fetched (not that it's incorrect).

    Islam of course was formed amongst societies that frequently worshipped classic Arabian gods. Considering the proximity of the Arabian desert, it's no miracle Zoroasterianism had lots of influence on the ancient Arabs. If the history of Muhammad is to be understood, he appeared to have made compromises with the Meccans (or at least they waited until he died until they started reviving old traditions, later attributing them with random hadith they 'found') in which he allowed certain practices and traditions to continue - as long as they were performed in honor of a monotheistic God. Again, like Manji states, like the inclusion of pagan characters and holidays.


    As for the small (lol, small) blurb about Fitnah, It's an interesting way to look at things.

    However, fitnah does not mean democracy, as such a concept did not exist at the time the word fitnah came into usage. I believe it was used to mean civil war, as the Arab chronicalers refer to the Ummayad and Abbasid civil wars as fitnahs. Since these battles were matters of one king over another king, democracy seems far-fetched as a valid translation of fitnah. However, this is off-topic.



    Edit: Ah, I think I can't give any more recommendations for now. Consider this an IOU.

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