UK EU In/Out Live Debate Nick Clegg & Nigel Farage Tonight

[Pielstick]

26th March 1900GMT - Live LBC radio debate between Nick Clegg (UK Deputy Prime Minister & leader of Liberal Democrat Party) and Nigel Farage (leader of UK Independence Party) on the UK's EU membership.

You can watch here: http://www.lbc.co.uk/watch-lbc-leade...th-march-87667

Or if you have a DAB radio on 97.3 FM.


Second round of the debate will be broadcast live on BBC2 TV on 2nd April.


Should be very interesting.

[Lord of Nihilism]

I'm not going to watch it myself but I'll no doubt see if I can find a point bulletin version of it after it's done. It's always perplexed me as to why the UK is in the EU, I mean the trade benefits are no doubt lucrative but the UK essentially takes orders from Germany...mind you the UK used to have the most powerful and largest empire mankind has ever known; it was a bastion of technological and civil innovation and now they've basically been reduced to naught. A sign of the times I suppose.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I'm not going to watch it myself but I'll no doubt see if I can find a point bulletin version of it after it's done. It's always perplexed me as to why the UK is in the EU, I mean the trade benefits are no doubt lucrative but the UK essentially takes orders from Germany...mind you the UK used to have the most powerful and largest empire mankind has ever known; it was a bastion of technological and civil innovation and now they've basically been reduced to naught. A sign of the times I suppose.

Actually it's more theres a struggle of the UK policy vs most of the rest of Europe. Which is rather silly in my opinion, the UK has the second largest economy in Europe, we should be using that to influence the EU (and indeed going fully into the EU) in a way that's constructive towards the UK's vision, not blocking every little thing and effectively annoying the rest of Europe off as happens now.

The UK should be in the EU, it makes sense politically and economically so i'm not sure what's so perplexing about that. We're indeed part of Europe geographically too (despite in the past not wishing to be so 'Fog in the Channel, Europe cut off' mentality was quite strong), it makes sense to use our economic position to either work with, or spar with Germany over the future of the EU. Not to squander that influence by basically whining over whether we should be in or out.

You speak as if the collapse of the Empire was a bad thing too my friend...

[Lord of Nihilism]

Actually it's more theres a struggle of the UK policy vs most of the rest of Europe. Which is rather silly in my opinion, the UK has the second largest economy in Europe, we should be using that to influence the EU (and indeed going fully into the EU) in a way that's constructive towards the UK's vision, not blocking every little thing and effectively annoying the rest of Europe off as happens now.

The UK should be in the EU, it makes sense politically and economically so i'm not sure what's so perplexing about that. We're indeed part of Europe geographically too (despite in the past not wishing to be so 'Fog in the Channel, Europe cut off' mentality was quite strong), it makes sense to use our economic position to either work with, or spar with Germany over the future of the EU. Not to squander that influence by basically whining over whether we should be in or out.

You speak as if the collapse of the Empire was a bad thing too my friend...

I meant that the UK should only join the EU IF it can force change via diplomacy, so basically Germany, Portugal and the other EU members should be subordinate to the UK. As it stands right now and correct me if i'm wrong, but Germany seems to be the heart of the EU. How is that Germany, who lost both world war's managed to control the EU economically, while the UK who won is left to take orders from Berlin? That's why it's perplexing; it's because of the fact that Germany seems to control most of the EU's policies and not the UK, who theoretically should have more leverage than Germany and practically every EU country except for France. Like I said, I could be wrong since I admit I don't know a lot about the EU and the intricacies. From the outside perspective though, it seems like Germany is in control, not the UK; logically every country should be looking out for their own interests, and if the UK can't change policies within the EU then what's the point of staying in? The UK has no force in the EU basically, so they might as well adopt Switzerland's approach I think.

I'm speaking of acknowledgement of the British Empire. For all intents and purposes the British Empire was at the forefront of science, medicine, technology and civil innovation; now they're no longer the experts they were and this all happened shortly after WW2.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

^Can you give an example of German orders UK had to follow?

You know this is a rhetorical question. I lol at this age and the people and their ideas in it. No wonder magnificent British empire fell. Well at least you still screw the world over financially and diplomatically. I guess it lacks sailing boats, red uniforms and touting though. I get you miss that bit of fanfare for the masses. 1 and 0's are so boring.

Think you may have misunderstood me Thorn (i'm assuming your responding to my post?) I've pointed out that the UK doesn't follow 'Germany Orders' since it spends most of it's time sparring against Europe, and indeed while Germany has much influence in Brussels i don't believe they solely have any kind of total control. Nor do i miss the Empire?

Of course if you were replying to Nihilism i couldn't comment as to that.

I meant that the UK should only join the EU IF it can force change via diplomacy, so basically Germany, Portugal and the other EU members should be subordinate to the UK. As it stands right now and correct me if i'm wrong, but Germany seems to be the heart of the EU. How is that Germany, who lost both world war's managed to control the EU economically, while the UK who won is left to take orders from Berlin? That's why it's perplexing; it's because of the fact that Germany seems to control most of the EU's policies and not the UK, who theoretically should have more leverage than Germany and practically every EU country except for France. Like I said, I could be wrong since I admit I don't know a lot about the EU and the intricacies. From the outside perspective though, it seems like Germany is in control, not the UK; logically every country should be looking out for their own interests, and if the UK can't change policies within the EU then what's the point of staying in? The UK has no force in the EU basically, so they might as well adopt Switzerland's approach I think.

I'm speaking of acknowledgement of the British Empire. For all intents and purposes the British Empire was at the forefront of science, medicine, technology and civil innovation; now they're no longer the experts they were and this all happened shortly after WW2.

The UK has actually be quite successful in it's diplomacy within the EU- managing either to turn EU resolutions to it's advantage, or where it cannot- getting special dispensation for an opt-out (Something that's a hot topic in the Scottish debate, as Scotland would not inherit these opt-hots)

The reason that arguably Germany is in more control of the EU than the UK is due to the UK's rather destructive nature in way concerning the organisation. If you look at the history, ironically the current EU trading block we have is actually the product of the UK's vision of the EU- France when it was formed wished for a far more integrated and Federal Union, but the UK won the argument- thus why its a bit confusing to some as to why the UK is constantly so skeptical of an organisation it helped to shape! It also explains as i've said Germany's influence who are very much integrated with Europe and pushing for that, meanwhile the UK who has something of a 'nay-sayers' reputation in the EU has rather less influence due to this.

If the UK changed it's course and really got stuck in to EU politics, i feel it would have far more influence than currently. But current antipathy towards the EU is why the UK has no influence.

The decline of the British influence is for a different discussion, but a lot of it had to do with the rise of US hegemony after WW2 (effectively forcing the disintegration of the British empire and economy- who were seen as traditional rivals to US interests), the effect of world war 2 on Britain (The only real winners of that war in the long run were the US and arguably Germany), and of course the various decolonization movements. That chapter of history was over, and to sustain it cost far more than to let it go.

But the point of staying in the EU is to properly and effectively go in and not only reap the massive trade benefits, but also to develop and wield the influence that the UK should have been building up.

[Lord of Nihilism]

The UK has actually be quite successful in it's diplomacy within the EU- managing either to turn EU resolutions to it's advantage, or where it cannot- getting special dispensation for an opt-out (Something that's a hot topic in the Scottish debate, as Scotland would not inherit these opt-hots)

The reason that arguably Germany is in more control of the EU than the UK is due to the UK's rather destructive nature in way concerning the organisation. If you look at the history, ironically the current EU trading block we have is actually the product of the UK's vision of the EU- France when it was formed wished for a far more integrated and Federal Union, but the UK won the argument- thus why its a bit confusing to some as to why the UK is constantly so skeptical of an organisation it helped to shape! It also explains as i've said Germany's influence who are very much integrated with Europe and pushing for that, meanwhile the UK who has something of a 'nay-sayers' reputation in the EU has rather less influence due to this.

If the UK changed it's course and really got stuck in to EU politics, i feel it would have far more influence than currently. But current antipathy towards the EU is why the UK has no influence.

The decline of the British influence is for a different discussion, but a lot of it had to do with the rise of US hegemony after WW2 (effectively forcing the disintegration of the British empire and economy- who were seen as traditional rivals to US interests), the effect of world war 2 on Britain (The only real winners of that war in the long run were the US and arguably Germany), and of course the various decolonization movements. That chapter of history was over, and to sustain it cost far more than to let it go.

But the point of staying in the EU is to properly and effectively go in and not only reap the massive trade benefits, but also to develop and wield the influence that the UK should have been building up.

If the UK has been successful in their diplomacy with the EU, then why is the UKIP steadily gaining support? The British people want to govern their country as they see fit, yet they can't because the men in Brussels(Mainly Germany) says it would descriminate other EU members of various countries who want to live in the UK. What i'm referring to is the fact that the British people don't want foreigners flooding into the UK from Bulgaria, Estonia and etc etc and essentially driving out the Englishmen, Scotsmen and Welshmen from the UK. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the UK wants to severely limit the amount of foreigners allowed into the country, as well as their ability to claim benefits, right? They can't do that because they're in the EU and Germany/Merkel is only willing to offer the UK "limited" treaty revisions as seen in this link:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...britain-eu-nhs

Logically, the two countries who should have the most power are France and the UK; it makes no sense for Germany to wield as much power as they do since they lost both world war's, but it is what it is. It's somewhat amusing since that Germany could theoretically be claimed as the winner of WW2 seeing as they, the US and Russia profited the most out of WW2.

It might be antipathy on their part or it could be a lack of ingenuity within the UK that has led to a dramatic decrease in influence. There's a reason why I brought up the British Empire and it wasn't to teach people a history lesson. You agree the British were at the forefront in technology, yes? Pioneers if you will; masters of basically every trade. They used both military might and their technological knowledge to coerce their enemies and friends, in order to get what they want. Many countries wanted the knowledge that the British Empire held, and they would've done almost anything for it; the British used this to their advantage in politics to win wars, political battles and settle disputes with other countries. Shortly after WW2 when the British Empire collapsed, they were no longer experts in what they did; their trade crafts were replaced by German, Russian and American trade crafts. So with this in mind, let's go the to the present; what can the EU offer the UK? Lucrative markets is a definite. What can the UK offer the EU? Nothing, and since they can't offer anything worthwhile, they have little influence in the EU. Essentially, they can't get what they want because they influence is almost non existent. That's why I brought up the British Empire; they can no longer use their knowledge as political leverage, and they can't use military might as well so they have nothing basically.

This is why I think the UK should just leave the EU and adopt Switzerland's approach. Switzerland isn't a complete EU member but they still trade with them; this would solve a lot of the issues that divide the UK's population.

One thing to keep in mind regarding my opinions is that it's from an outside perspective. I don't live in the UK so I don't know the exact details of the EU-UK relation, nor do I know many specifics of the EU itself.

[Thorn777]

^Can you give an example of German orders UK had to follow?

You know this is a rhetorical question. I lol at this age and the people and their ideas in it. No wonder magnificent British empire fell. Well at least you still screw the world over financially and diplomatically. I guess it lacks sailing boats, red uniforms and touting though. I get you miss that bit of fanfare for the masses. 1 and 0's are so boring.

[Thorn777]

My reply was for Lord of Hihilsm. You posted ahead of me and I was to lazy to edit it thinking it would be obvious enough.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Ahh my bad Thorn . I'm but a simple student and it's early for me! In that case i'd mirror your question then.

[Rootsie]

Clegg is a much better debater than people give him credit for. This should be an interesting evening....

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Indeed i'm quite looking forward to it, i'm not sure how well Nigel Farage will do to be honest, i'm quite bias against him (due to his political views), but can he debate well at all? We all know Clegg can due to him being the sole reason the Lib-Dems did so well in the last general election- due to the televised debates where he ran rings around Cameron and Brown. Can he do the same to Farage?

[Rootsie]

Indeed i'm quite looking forward to it, i'm not sure how well Nigel Farage will do to be honest, i'm quite bias against him (due to his political views), but can he debate well at all? We all know Clegg can due to him being the sole reason the Lib-Dems did so well in the last general election- due to the televised debates where he ran rings around Cameron and Brown. Can he do the same to Farage?

Farage is a superb orator. Although I'm broadly euroskeptic, I disagree with pretty much all of Farage's economic and social views (too far right for me), yet I cannot help but like the man.

That is Farage's secret. His ability with words coupled with the fact he neither looks nor sounds like a politician.

[Bobz]

Farage is a superb orator. Although I'm broadly euroskeptic, I disagree with pretty much all of Farage's economic and social views (too far right for me), yet I cannot help but like the man.

That is Farage's secret. His ability with words coupled with the fact he neither looks nor sounds like a politician.

I agree fully. We're talking about an ex-city banker from a public school, and yet he manages to come across as pretty much the only "man of the people" going. Even though he has broadly right-wing views, he's using his image as an outsider to gain a lot of support from across the board, not just dissatisfied Tories.


I can't help but feel no matter what Clegg can come up with, he is so universally reviled nowadays that he can't help but end up "losing" the debate. There are good reasons to remain within the EU but with the Tories bitterly divided and Labour remaining tactically quiet, it is unfortunate the battered Lib Dems are the only party firmly pro-EU. Not that their position is one that I totally support mind you, but someone at least needs to stand on the stage and counter the increasing number of voices wanting to leave.

[Gatsby]

To me he sounds and acts exactly like our worst preconception of a politician. He speaks loudly, sounds upper class, makes vacuous, sweeping statements and panders to the absolute lowest denominator. He is by far the most politician-y politician in the UK today.

[Pielstick]

Farage is a superb orator. Although I'm broadly euroskeptic, I disagree with pretty much all of Farage's economic and social views (too far right for me), yet I cannot help but like the man.

That is Farage's secret. His ability with words coupled with the fact he neither looks nor sounds like a politician.

I was watching I think it was the press round up on Sky News just after Tony Benn's death and one of the guests commented that in recent memory the only really good orators in British politics were Tony Benn, George Galloway and Nigel Farage. I tend to agree.

I'd say at least part of his success has been his willingness to tackle the immigration issue head on whereas the other parties wanted to tip toe around it.

[AgentGB]

Only problem i have with the EU, is the free movement for workers, that allows people to use london has a cash cow to buy property back in there home country at next to nothing, compared to a £250,000 house in london. But i don't have that great of a problem with it, just Russians who flooded over and used the money to buy up multiple properties back home in Russia.

and immigration. since we are the best welfare state in europe, with free housing and dole money, we are like a utopia for alot of countires in europe.

Has for George Galloway, his party "respect" is fricken horrible, and now we have islamic laws being added to our own, they breed like rabbits, almost like it's a doctrine, then the offspring claim free housing and benefits, then rinse and repeat.

England is beginning to lose it's Identity, well atleast a bit in london, since russians or islamics would not join the British army, or care for our history. Yet will always vote for "right winged" parties. It's time to close the borders up a bit, before we get to diluted in ideologically and give some time for people to adopt british values, or only allow certain nations in, like the germans, french, polish, or maybe old friends from the empire, like Australia & India etc, for work, whom we share good relations. But if they wish to stay, they need to swear an oath, none of this bewax that happened in crimea, and that can potentially happen in estonia. I will be voting UKIP or Tories, not labour or respect for the far future. On leaving the EU, i have my reasons for leaving, despite whatever trade benefits it brings, but i will wait until i've heard the argument before properly deciding were my vote goes.

[Azog 150]

and immigration. since we are the best welfare state in europe, with free housing and dole money, we are like a utopia for alot of countires in europe.

I think you need to reassess the state of this country


http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourking...-thats-bizarre

[Rootsie]

russians or islamics would not join the British army, or care for our history.

Tell that to the family of Lance Corporal Jabron Hashmi - a Muslim and first generation immigrant from Pakistan to the UK - who was Killed in Action while serving with the Intelligence Corps in Afghanistan.

The fact is that I'm constantly amazed at how keen immigrants are to contribute toward British society. I've come across many in both the regular and reserve armed forces. Many of them join up as soon as possible because they want to give something back to the UK.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Farage is a superb orator. Although I'm broadly euroskeptic, I disagree with pretty much all of Farage's economic and social views (too far right for me), yet I cannot help but like the man.

That is Farage's secret. His ability with words coupled with the fact he neither looks nor sounds like a politician.

From what you and others have said my friend, this doesn't bode well then...

Only problem i have with the EU, is the free movement for workers, that allows people to use london has a cash cow to buy property back in there home country at next to nothing, compared to a £250,000 house in london. But i don't have that great of a problem with it, just Russians who flooded over and used the money to buy up multiple properties back home in Russia.

and immigration. since we are the best welfare state in europe, with free housing and dole money, we are like a utopia for alot of countires in europe.

Has for George Galloway, his party "respect" is fricken horrible, and now we have islamic laws being added to our own, they breed like rabbits, almost like it's a doctrine, then the offspring claim free housing and benefits, then rinse and repeat.

England is beginning to lose it's Identity, well atleast a bit in london, since russians or islamics would not join the British army, or care for our history. Yet will always vote for "right winged" parties. It's time to close the borders up a bit, before we get to diluted in ideologically and give some time for people to adopt british values, or only allow certain nations in, like the germans, french, polish, or maybe old friends from the empire, like Australia & India etc, for work, whom we share good relations. But if they wish to stay, they need to swear an oath, none of this bewax that happened in crimea, and that can potentially happen in estonia. I will be voting UKIP or Tories, not labour or respect for the far future. On leaving the EU, i have my reasons for leaving, despite whatever trade benefits it brings, but i will wait until i've heard the argument before properly deciding were my vote goes.

Trouble is to put it bluntly if we leave the EU we can kiss our economic growth, recovery and status as the second largest economy in Europe goodbye. The impact on business would potentially be astronomical due to no longer having access tariff free to our largest market.

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/statisti...ges/EuOTS.aspx

They are the largest market we trade, now imagine the consequences for that of British jobs, industry and employment. Theirs a reason why most British business leaders are behind staying in the EU my friend:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...obby-group-cbi

http://www.cbi.org.uk/media-centre/p...yougov-survey/ (8 out of 10 firms stay Britain needs to stay in the EU)

http://www.libdems.org.uk/businesses...stay_in_europe (Indeed a long list of major Businesses here support the EU

As to the whole 'Identity aspect' I've spoken before about the whole integration thing- 2nd generation immigrants integrate very well in the vast majority of cases- the idea of Islamification has no actual grounds- especially as Muslims are very much the minority in the UK, and again as i've said 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants are essentially 'British' with all that entails.

The issue we see in the media is a minority of vocal first generation immigrants and really a non-issue.

Especially when you consider the UK's economic revival is largely build around immigration- who contribute economically far more than they take!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24813467

In the four fiscal years following EU enlargement in 2004, migrants from the A8 countries made a positive contribution to public finance, despite the UK running a budget deficit

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk...immigration-uk

Migrants coming to the UK since the year 2000 have been less likely to receive benefits or use social housing than people already living in the country, according to a study that argues the new arrivals have made a net contribution of £25bn to public finances.People from European Economic Area countries have been the most likely to make a positive contribution, paying about 34% more in taxes than they received in benefits over the 10 years from 2001 to 2011, according to the findings from University College London's migration research unit. Other immigrants paid about 2% more than they received.
Recent immigrants were 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than people native to the UK and 3% less likely to live in social housing, says the report written by Professor Christian Dustmann and Dr Tommaso Frattini.

Migrants contribute £25bn to UK economy, study finds

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...seless-experts

So i'd argue caution where immigration is concerned with the UK my friend, the fact we're doing relatively well at the moment is in no small part to do with this.

[General Brittanicus]

Trouble is to put it bluntly if we leave the EU we can kiss our economic growth, recovery and status as the second largest economy in Europe goodbye. The impact on business would potentially be astronomical due to no longer having access tariff free to our largest market.

Please continue - I would be interested to hear why you think our economy would suddenly collapse if we left the EU customs union.

They are the largest market we trade, now imagine the consequences for that of British jobs, industry and employment. Theirs a reason why most British business leaders are behind staying in the EU my friend:

(8 out of 10 firms stay Britain needs to stay in the EU)

(Indeed a long list of major Businesses here support the EU

A greater proportion of our trade is already carried out with countries outside the EU than inside and I can only see that increasing as the EU continues to tighten the noose it has placed around its own neck. And we all know that big business is always in favour of doing what is best for the people - if they all decide to up and leave for the EU if we leave then I am sure many people will join me in waving to them as they sail across the channel - hopefully they take those parasites in London with them as well.

As to the whole 'Identity aspect' I've spoken before about the whole integration thing- 2nd generation immigrants integrate very well in the vast majority of cases- the idea of Islamification has no actual grounds- especially as Muslims are very much the minority in the UK, and again as i've said 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants are essentially 'British' with all that entails.

The issue we see in the media is a minority of vocal first generation immigrants and really a non-issue.

Especially when you consider the UK's economic revival is largely build around immigration- who contribute economically far more than they take!

So i'd argue caution where immigration is concerned with the UK my friend, the fact we're doing relatively well at the moment is in no small part to do with this.

Whilst I am not entirely opposed to immigration I think you are being a bit naive here. You should probably take a trip around a few major cities if you think such large numbers of immigrants are integrating well with British society (replacing would be a better word)- Birmingham and Leicester are the two where I do a lot of work and are two of the ones I think you should have a drive through. However I should add that I am all for allowing new people into the country and I don't believe they should abandon all the culture they bring from their own countries either, as we should be incorporating the best bits into our own society. I just believe it should be in much lower numbers, so we actually have a chance of integrating them and our infrastructure actually has a chance to cope with the vastly increasing numbers.

Actually it's more theres a struggle of the UK policy vs most of the rest of Europe. Which is rather silly in my opinion, the UK has the second largest economy in Europe, we should be using that to influence the EU (and indeed going fully into the EU) in a way that's constructive towards the UK's vision, not blocking every little thing and effectively annoying the rest of Europe off as happens now.

When did we start blocking every little thing? We have tried to block very little as far as I am aware regardless of how damaging it is for the UK and even when we do try it doesn't matter and we end up implementing whatever crackpot scheme the EU has lined up for us next (unlike some of the other countries like France I might add).

The UK should be in the EU, it makes sense politically and economically so i'm not sure what's so perplexing about that. We're indeed part of Europe geographically too (despite in the past not wishing to be so 'Fog in the Channel, Europe cut off' mentality was quite strong), it makes sense to use our economic position to either work with, or spar with Germany over the future of the EU. Not to squander that influence by basically whining over whether we should be in or out.

Whilst it is true that several of the smaller countries wanted us to act as a counterweight to Germany I don't see it happening. We have never had much backing from the continent in previous disputes with the EU and there is absolutely nothing we can do on our own - there is certainly nothing our MEPs can do to help us. Until they either abolish or entirely reform the CAP, abolish the CFP, reduce the ridiculous levels of bureaucracy and red tape they are so fond of (although that goes for our own government as well), abandon their push for a "no electricity future", vastly reduce the staggering sums of money we are forced to pay into their corruption machine, abandon their plans to duplicate all of the European embassies around the world, stop trying to implement their press controls, trying to push propaganda into schools and stop trying (and already partially succeeding) to erode our system of common law you are never going to see widespread support for the monstrosity that is currently the EU. Of course we could just wait for enough immigrants (who for the most part tend to vote for left wing parties whatever their actual political views actually are) to dilute the electorate enough that any dissenting views will be small enough not to matter.

You speak as if the collapse of the Empire was a bad thing too my friend...

I don't particularly care that it no longer exists, but I certainly don't think it was entirely a good thing that it collapsed (not entirely bad either) and I expect many people will agree with me.

hmm i guess, just annoys me, that in london, it seems there is a mosque everywhere, only 5 years ago, was there a potest outside east ham town hall, calling for the english flag to be taken down on St Georges Day, because the islamic community fount it racist. When i go to Kent to vist family, it a whole different world from London. It is just a London thing unfortunately i think.

Nah, it also happens here in the East Midlands - there have been calls for the Union flag to be taken down, because certain people complained they thought it was racist since the BNP uses it as one of their symbols. It is basically the same in every major city, but at least (as far as I am aware) it hasn't gotten as bad here as it has in some countries like France who have essentially lost control of some of their cities such as Marseilles now.