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Thread: Turkland in Norse Mythology

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    Why ? I thought it was not clear which group Hunnic belong to.

    Plus these names are just plain Turkic, even understandable for a modern Turkish speaker like me, I don't think there is important factor of language branch here.

    Edit: Mundzuk is Turkic too, I forgot it.
    They are Turkic, but moddern "Turkic" is (Linguistically) "Tyrkic" not "Turkic" because it has been muddled and intermingled with Arabic and Greek and Persian.

    Chuvash is the only living Lir-Turkic language, and is the closest to the Hunnic language. We don't know what ethnicity the Huns were, but we know they spoke something similar to Oghur Bulgarian.

    I have a list of confirmed Hunnic (that is, they are confirmed to be Hunnic language) names at Home. I'll post it later.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    Btw I do not claim that there couldn't be Germanic or any other names, linguistic influence , cultural exchange is pretty natural, same thing is happened in east as well, but in my opinion I think its pretty clear that original core and ruling elite of Huns were Turkic, they probably absorbed some non-Turkic nomads in their way to Europe as well, and finally subjugated native eastern europeans and influenced from them as well.

    Pretty much like later Magyars.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    Yeah, that's basically right. In the 5th century you see a lot of Germanic names as the ruling class absorbed the ruling classes of the myriad of Germanic groups underneath them. In the 6th century you see a lot of Sarmatian, and more Hunnic names, as the Huns left East Europe and were back on the steppes, before they were overrun by more Turks.

    Confimred Male Prefixes:
    Alpil
    Alt
    Aps
    Aran
    As/Es
    Ata
    Bas
    Ber
    Daniz
    Emne
    Elmin
    Ere
    Kur/Kurs
    Kurid
    Mun
    Sandil
    Tuniz
    Tutizar
    Ultzin
    Zol/zolb

    Confirmed Female Prefixes:
    Ari/Eri

    Suffixes:
    -gir/gur for Tribune-like ranks
    -zur for Duke-like ranks
    -cur for generic Commander/Noble
    -ik means little
    -ak means hero
    -kam for Shaman
    -juq for Standard-bearer

    Known names for the "Attilanic Huns"
    Qaraton (Charaton)
    Basik
    Berik
    Danizik (Dengzich)
    Aranak (Ernak)
    Emne(t)zur
    Erekam
    Eskam
    Munjuq (Mundzuk)
    Ultzin (Uldin?)
    Ultzingur (No relation to Uldin)

    Titles:
    Al-ik, ruler of the Akatir

    Akatir Names:
    Kuridak (Turkish)

    Utigur and Kutigur Names:
    Sandil(-ik) (Turkish)

    Sabir:
    Balak
    Iligur
    Kut

    In the Roman Army:
    Althias (Grecized)
    Elmingur/Elminzur (Promotion!)
    Zolbon (Grecized)

    All others are taken from Germanic/Iranic Languages or otherwise unknown.

    Hunnic Tribes:

    Onogur
    Utigur
    Kutrigur
    Akatir (Acatziri, Turkish)
    Tongur
    Sabir
    Saragur
    Bittugur
    Ultinzur
    Bardor

  4. #44
    Hengest's Avatar It's a joke
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    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    They are Turkic, but moddern "Turkic" is (Linguistically) "Tyrkic" not "Turkic" because it has been muddled and intermingled with Arabic and Greek and Persian.

    Chuvash is the only living Lir-Turkic language, and is the closest to the Hunnic language. We don't know what ethnicity the Huns were, but we know they spoke something similar to Oghur Bulgarian.

    I have a list of confirmed Hunnic (that is, they are confirmed to be Hunnic language) names at Home. I'll post it later.
    Hunnic is only Turkic-ish Peter Heather's argument is for Altaic or Bulgar.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    I have read Heather's works. Altaic is a linguistic grouping that ranges from Mongolian to Turk (and some elements of Korean and Japanese), and Bulgar is Lir-Turk (like the Huns.)

    The Hun language is Lir-Turkic, closest to the Bulgar language, but no more precise than that. Some names that look Turkic but we cannot pinpoint to a Turkic or Alanic name are probably unique to the Hun language, or a mix of Hun and another language. Ellak is a good example.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    I would say Ellak is pretty obvious, Turkic "Illig" , it means person who has country. "Il" country, "lig" belonging suffix, in modern Turkish construction it would be Illi. a fitting name for royalty.
    Last edited by Tureuki; April 01, 2014 at 06:18 AM.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    It could be a corrupted Greek rendition of the title "Al-ik." As well. We really don't know in that regard.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    I don't know what Al-ik, its sounds like something highly deformed, does anyone made any etymologic explanation in any language ? may be something like Alp Bek

    These corrupted words are really confusing, the name you recorded as Kuridak is recorded as Karadach in wiki for example :/
    Last edited by Tureuki; April 01, 2014 at 10:33 AM.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    Well no these are not corruptions. What's recorded is usually Latinized or Grecized, and has to be "translated" back into Turkish. It took some of the world's premier etymologysts of the 1970's to do it, and they used snippets of Old Bulgar and modern Chuvash, not Turkic, as their basis because it was closer.

    Again, the Hunnic language, although similar to Turkic, was a lot different. Al-ik is one of those words that's probably exclusive to it.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    But we cannot just pass it saying its Hunnic, these languages you mentioned are Turkic too despite some major differences, its needs a etymologic explanation. Did anyone made any explanation taking Chuvash as base ?

    Thinking again, it might be something coming from the verb "al"(take), the title Alp is also coming from it, less possibly from the color al(red).
    Last edited by Tureuki; April 02, 2014 at 04:43 AM.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    Did anyone made any explanation taking Chuvash as base
    Chuvash is the only surviving Lir-Turkic Language. It was the logical choice.

    Hunnic is Altaic, some form of Lir-Turkic, but not modern Turkic which is Gok-Turk.

    I should note Altaic includes a LOT of languages, including Oghur Bulgar, Turkic, Mongolian, Korean, and Japanese.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    The population in Scandinavia itself show no signs of such a migration, so let's look at the mythology.

    Snorri writes:
    The world was divided into three parts: from the south, extending into the west and bordering on the Mediterranean Sea,--all this part was called Africa, the southern quarter of which is hot, so that it is parched with the sun. The second part, from west to north and bordering on the ocean, is called Európá or Eneá; its northern part is so cold that no grass grows upon it, and no man dwells there. From the north and all down over the eastern part, even to the south, is called Asia. In that region of the world is all fairness and pride, and the fruits of the earth's increase, gold and jewels. There also is the centre of the earth; and even as the land there is lovelier and better in every way than in other places, so also were the sons of men there most favored with all goodly gifts: wisdom, and strength of the body, beauty, and all manner of knowledge.
    This is quite a bit influences by Christianity and such. He was a Christian man, and spends the first part of the Edda to explain how this fits into the christan world view and is not heresy, but rather a explanation of the existence of pagans.

    He goes on to write:
    Near the earth's centre was made that goodliest of homes and haunts that ever have been, which is called Troy, even that which we call Turkland. This abode was much more gloriously made than others, and fashioned with more skill of craftsmanship in manifold wise, both in luxury and in the wealth which was there in abundance. There were twelve kingdoms and one High King, and many sovereignties belonged to each kingdom; in the stronghold were twelve chieftains. These chieftains were in every manly part greatly above other men that have ever been in the world. One king among them was called Múnón or Mennón; (Agamemnon?) and he was wedded to the daughter of the High King Priam, her who was called Tróán; they had a child named Trór, whom we call Thor. He was fostered in Thrace by a certain war-duke called Lóríkus; but when he was ten winters old he took unto him the weapons of his father. He was as goodly to look upon, when he came among other men, as the ivory that is inlaid in oak; his hair was fairer than gold. When he was twelve winters old he had his full measure of strength; then he lifted clear of the earth ten bear-skins all at one time; and then he slew Duke Lóríkus, his foster-father, and with him his wife Lórá, or Glórá, and took into his own hands the realm of Thrace, which we call Thrúdheim. Then he went forth far and wide over the lands, and sought out every quarter of the earth, overcoming alone all berserks and giants, and one dragon, greatest of all dragons, and many beasts. In the northern half of his kingdom he found the prophetess that is called Síbil, whom we call Sif, and wedded her.

    Their son was Lóridi, who resembled his father; his son was Einridi, his son Vingethor, his son Vingener, his son Móda, his son Magi, his son Seskef, his son Bedvig, his son Athra (whom we call Annarr), his son Ítermann, his son Heremód, his son Skjaldun (whom we call Skjöld), his son Bjáf (whom we call Bjárr), his son Ját, his son Gudólfr, his son Finn, his son Fríallaf (whom we call Fridleifr); his son was he who is named Vóden, whom we call Odin: he was a man far-famed for wisdom and every accomplishment. His wife was Frígídá, whom we call Frigg.
    Snorri was an eduated man, and would likely know a few ancient greek tales. They would have been quite influential to this.
    Notice some of the gods names. Odin was Vòden, he says. His Proto-Germanic name was likely Wōdanaz, and the old German name was Old Saxon "Wôdan" and the Old High German "Wôtan". This can indicate that he has taken the Older word for the god they used in the mainland.

    Now to the really interesting part. I have to cut some for lenght, but you can read the whole thing here: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre03.htm

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Odin had second sight, and his wife also; and from their foreknowledge he found that his name should be exalted in the northern part of the world and glorified above the fame of all other kings. Therefore, he made ready to journey out of Turkland, and was accompanied by a great multitude of people, young folk and old, men and women; and they had with them much goods of great price. And wherever they went over the lands of the earth, many glorious things were spoken of them, so that they were held more like gods than men. They made no end to their journeying till they were come north into the land that is now called Saxland; there Odin tarried for a long space, and took the land into his own hand, far and wide.

    In that land Odin set up three of his sons for land-wardens. One was named Vegdeg: he was a mighty king and ruled over East Saxland; his son was Vitgils; his sons were Vitta, Heingistr's father, and Sigarr, father of Svebdeg, whom we call Svipdagr. The second son of Odin was

    {p. 8}

    Beldeg, whom we call Baldr: he had the land which is now called Westphalia. His son was Brandr [...] These the forefathers ruled over what is now called Frankland; and thence is descended the house known as Völsungs. From all these are sprung many and great houses.

    Then Odin began his way northward, and came into the land which they called Reidgothland; and in that land he took possession of all that pleased him. He set up over the land that son of his called Skjöldr [...] these are the kings of the Danes. And what was then called Reidgothland is now called Jutland.

    V

    After that he went northward, where the land is called Sweden; the king there was named Gylfi. When the king learned of the coming of those men of Asia, who were called Æsir, he went to meet them, and made offer to them that Odin should have such power in his realm as he himself wielded. [...]

    The fields and the choice lands in that place seemed fair to Odin, and he chose for himself the site of a city which is now called Sigtún. There he established chieftains in the

    {p. 9}

    fashion which had prevailed in Troy; he set up also twelve head-men to be doomsmen over the people and to judge the laws of the land; and he ordained also all laws as, there had been before, in Troy, and according to the customs of the Turks. After that he went into the north, until he was stopped by the sea, which men thought lay around all the lands of the earth; and there he set his son over this kingdom, which is now called Norway. This king was Sæmingr; the kings of Norway trace their lineage from him [...] Odin had with him one of his sons called Yngvi, who was king in Sweden after him; and those houses come from him that are named Ynglings. The Æsir took wives of the land for themselves, and some also for their sons; and these kindreds became many in number, so that throughout Saxland, and thence all over the region of the north, they spread out until their tongue, even the speech of the men of Asia, was the native tongue over all these lands. Therefore men think that they can perceive, from their forefathers' names which are written down, that those names belonged to this tongue, and that the Æsir brought the tongue hither into the northern region, into Norway and into Sweden, into Denmark and into Saxland. But in England there are ancient lists of land-names and place-names which may show that these names came from another tongue than this.


    The last part seems to mention the Celtic and not Anglo-Saxon names in England, that would seem weird to Norsemen.
    This seems quite straight forwards, but then this is also weird in many ways. He do not seem to know the difference between Trojans and Turks, and many of the things are hard to date. Troy is ancient, the war dated to 1194-1240 BC.

    And more importantly: Germanic languages are said to come to Scandinavia with the Corded Ware culture/Battle axe culture from 2800 BC. This culture most likely brought the Indo-European Germanic religion, the Indo-European Germanic dialect and such things. Where did that culture originate? Seems like Poland, extending from Volga to the Rhine. It descended of an earlier Indo-European culture, who ultimately comes from the east.

    In Scandinavia the new language spread in the south and along the coasts. It and Sami most likely assimilating the previous population. The religion was quite similar as the other Germanic religions, but with extra gods, the Vanir, who seem to be older fertility gods, from before the Germanic gods came. Most known one is Freja. Some more remote areas in Scandinavia like Jämtland worshipped almost only the Vanir.

    The norse sources mentions a Æsir-Vanir war. Where they finally reach a peace by intermarrying.
    Many scholars think this might be a ancient account of the Germanic peoples meet with the original Scandinavians. This would have been thousands of years before Snorri, and legends at his time.

    Sturlaugs saga starfsama also says:
    ALLIR menn, þeir sem sannfróðir eru at um tíðendi, vita, at Tyrkir ok Asíamenn byggðu Norðrlönd. Hófst þá tunga sú, er síðan dreifðist um öll lönd. Formaðr þess fólks hét Óðinn, er menn rekja ætt til.
    "All men, that are wise and knows of the truths know that Turks and Asia-men settled in the Northlands. Their language then spread to all lands and the leader of these people were named Odin, that men trace their lineage to"

    This was written after 100 years after Snorri though, and it might just have been the educated school of thought at the time.

    What is very likely and common for all of these people is that "turks" does not mean ethnic turks, or people with such languages. But rather all inhabitants of Anatolia, as you can see there is a distinction between Asians and Turks, but not between Turks and ancient Troyans. Not to mention that by the time we had the Germanic languages in Scandinavia there were no Turks in west Anatolia where Troy is.

    Also keep in mind that the main reason behind this prologue in the Edda was to be able to write the rest of the books without being called a heathen. He had to show he was a Christian, and theretofore showed his view on why these people were called gods, at the same time as he describe how their lineages till exist.
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    Classic case of taking peoples of the author's time and applying it to their history?

  14. #54

    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    Yeah as I thought he does not uses Turk for steppe nomads&ethnic Turkics, he's referring to Troy and Anatolia, and Land of Turks is a quite common name for Anatolia by that time.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Turkland in Norse Mythology

    Turkish or Chinese, you can get more resources if you research the subjects you are researching.
    -
    Because the Turks were a nomadic ethnic group, they migrated geographically to many regions. Nowadays they proclaim Turkishness badly. But I can say that yes, the level of ignorance has increased in Turkey. But the region you call" Tyrkland " may appear as Anatolia, but Central Asia or Europe can be mentioned in ancient history. The Huns Are Turks. How was the European hun state established? The Mongols attacked the Turks many times, and the Turks decided to emigrate and emigrated to Western and Western Europe. and the Hun state was established in Europe. Today there are many people who are of Turkish origin and whose origins are Turkish. For example: Bulgarians,Hungarians,Macedonians,Azerbaijanis,Kazakhs,Kyrgyz,Uzbeks,Avars,Turks of Turkey, Turks of Iraq, Turks of Iran, Turks of Africa, some Native Americans, Turks of Germany, Turks of Kipchak in Lithuania, Turks of Kuman in Estonia and Latvia, Bashkirs and Tatars in Russia... and there are many Turkish people who have not yet counted.

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