How to Survive as Crusader States with BGR IV?

[TheBard]

Hey all, haven't posted much around here lately, but I'm a longtime SS player and have been using BGR IV for quite a while (not up to V just yet).

I like having a hard campaign, but I'm having way too much difficulty as Early Era Crusader States. I'm using BGR IV with longer assimilation, heir crown, long lived, and ReallyBadAI (not hardcore, though).

I've got a few house rules that also restrict me a little bit: no selling map info, no spamming forts, no blocking bridges forever. I've also nerfed assassins in the data files so that they only have a 10% max chance (I always do this).

I've been defeated several times in a row now, and I'm determined to somehow survive as long as I can. I lost with VH/VH, then H Campaign, VH battles, then H/H, and now I'm at H/M, I think. BGR IV obviously adds a ton of difficulty, but I like the richness and depth of that mod too much to get rid of it or move to BGR II.

This time, I gave up Edessa pretty quickly and took Acre instead. That has given me Antioch, Acre, and Jerusalem. I haven't had enough troops to take Tortosa or Cyprus ? (the island off the coast), but I'd like to take both if I can ever manage it.

Major problems have been a lack of money and just crazy spamming by the Fatimids. I'm allied with the Romans, Sicily, the Papal States and had trade rights with Seljuks and Fatimids for a few turns until they reneged and attacked me.

Easier battle difficulty has helped me to fend off many many attacks so far, but the tide seems to be turning. I've had to put most of my money into churches and markets, as well as recruiting whatever troops I can get whenever I can get them. Not enough close trade partners is killing me, as is being besieged almost every turn. I've also got a Hospitallers HQ and a Templaer HQ, though the long recruiting times make them very rare.

I'm up to 1117 or so now and don't see any real way out of this mess. Any thoughts? I don't want to do anything really cheap just in order to survive, though I'm getting closer to that edge now! I do have to say it is kind of exciting to a) feel like you are always on the edge of a knife in terms of survival and b) have large battles almost every turn.

Thanks for any tips or advice! I'm willing to start over from scratch if/when I get defeated this time, so tips for early-turn play would be welcome, also.

[Strengelicher]

If your Papal standing allows for it, have a crusade called against a potentially interesting trade partner. Western nations will declare war on that faction. As a consequence, they will have many enemies and will be more open to peace and trade from your side. However, watch out for your generals, as they will be levied with crusade tax under BGR IV. They need some money to sit out the crusade without you joining.

[Strengelicher]

If your Papal standing allows for it, have a crusade called against a potentially interesting trade partner. Western nations will declare war on that faction. As a consequence, they will have many enemies and will be more open to peace and trade from your side. However, watch out for your generals, as they will be levied with crusade tax under BGR IV. They need some money to sit out the crusade without you joining.

OK, maybe I was not clear enough here. Calling a crusade on either the Fatimids or the Seljuks can almost be considered an exploit because of the consequences it has in the field of diplomacy. As the Crusader States, you either need to expand really quickly, or you need trade agreements with your neighbours. Otherwise, your financials will go down the drain. Since both the Seljuks and Fatimids are prone to start mindless attacks against you again and again, you must retain the ability to reestablish peace and trade agreements. To do this, you must keep a good reputation, and they must have many enemies in the diplomacy menue. As long as they have many enemies, they will be ready to make peace and trade with you again and again for a few turns each time. A crusade will cause almost all Western factions to declare war against the faction holding the target, and even if the crusade ends, many factions will remain at war for many turns. You must use this to your advantage to trade and refill your coffers.

Another thing: Consider selling settlements which are strategically in a bad position to Western factions. As long as the faction buying the settlement holds it, you can still make money from trading with them. And if the Fatimids/Seljuks take the settlement back, they will at least be at war with that Western faction.

Trade and diplomacy are key factors. Get the most out of conquering a settlement by sacking it, then sell all infrastructure inside, and then sell it to a Western faction. If you run deeply into debt, you are up a certain creek without a paddle, because you lose the initiative. Never go as deep as -29,000. Also, take a look at how much your units cost and where you get free upkeep for which units.

Lastly: As you have already found out, the Fatimid bodyguards have very tough armour. Try to get them with crossbows, using fortress formations in the field (see my AAR for details).

[TheBard]

Calling a crusade on either the Fatimids or the Seljuks can almost be considered an exploit because of the consequences it has in the field of diplomacy. As the Crusader States, you either need to expand really quickly, or you need trade agreements with your neighbours. Otherwise, your financials will go down the drain.

Another thing: Consider selling settlements which are strategically in a bad position to Western factions. As long as the faction buying the settlement holds it, you can still make money from trading with them. And if the Fatimids/Seljuks take the settlement back, they will at least be at war with that Western faction.

Lastly: As you have already found out, the Fatimid bodyguards have very tough armour. Try to get them with crossbows, using fortress formations in the field (see my AAR for details).

Strengelicher, thanks for the tips. I didn't use the crusade exploit mainly because none of my generals have enough money early in the game to withstand the 200-florins per turn Crusade Tax on BGR IV. And if the king joins to end the tax on them, it costs him and the treasury 5000 each, and doesn't give the European nations long enough to get there.

What I did do was take your advice about selling settlements. I traded Damietta to Sicily for 2000 florins per turn for 10 turns, and traded Cairo to the Byzantines for 2000 florins per turn for 10 turns. I was already allied with both, so it gave me two close trading partners, and it also created a buffer zone between me and the Fatimids in the west. Plus, it virtually guaranteed that both those factions would go to war with the Fatimids almost immediately.

The 4000 per turn for 10 turns was also a huge help to getting me out of debt, and giving up those two cities meant that I could consolidate my armies and generals in Jerusalem and Gaza while also disbanding some of the more expensive troops. That got me down to about -15000 fairly quickly. Then, I was fortunate enough to capture the enemy Caliph. I never continue battles, since the AI can't do it, but I had specifically attacked this army to kill his Caliph and when he was down to 1 man and routed, I wasn't about to let him flee. Capturing him and ransoming netted me more than 12000 florins. I was a bit surprised they paid, but I'll take it!

So within about 3-4 years I was finally out of debt. Since then, I've built up Jerusalem greatly, creating a Barracks, an Armory, and the Templars Major Chapter House. This now gives me access to all sorts of elite troops that I've never really had access to before: Templar Foot Knights, Constable of Jerusalem, Edessan Guard, Dismounted Knights of Lazarus (I think?), plus more of the Canons of the Holy Sepulchre and Jerusalem Foot Knights. I'm recruiting carefully so as not to go way into debt, but most of these either have low upkeep or free upkeep in Jerusalem, so I'm doing ok for now.

I've concentrated on markets, ports, churches in my other cities. I was able to expand again after getting out of debt and took Al Aqaba and Kerak, and just took Acre. The expansion has helped my treasury and kept the Fatimids and Seljuks from encroaching on me, and it has also helped the royal family to finally start to expand.

Things are certainly not perfect, and if Damietta and/or Cairo are taken by the Fatimids, my finances will be hindered a fair bit. But I'm working on building up a strong enough army to soon expand either eastward (where I'll have to fight the Seljuks) or southward (where I can take the lightly defended Fatimid cities there).

This is definitely my best attempt so far. I'm in 1117 right now, and it's not the longest I have lasted, but I'm in considerably better shape than previous attempts.

I've been trying to hire a few crossbow militia when I can, to disperse them among my cities to help against Fatimid bodyguards. Unfortunately, I'm still working on that, and have had to mostly rely on spearmen and cavalry charges to take them out thus far.

Thanks so much to everyone for all the ideas. Even on M/M, this campaign is very hard, primarily because of BGR IV. Very fun, though.

[Duck of Death]

No shame in a temporary retreat.

Alexander made more then a few "retreats".
Of course they lasted minutes before he turned and crushed his enemy. So minutes... years... its all relative

The Greeks/Spartans made a habbit out of feigning retreats before crushing the Persians

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

The Greeks/Spartans made a habbit out of feigning retreats before crushing the Persians

Surely not the Spartans.

You seem to be doing alright. In a Byzantine campaign with Gracul on vh/vh, I had not managed to get trade rights with anyone (except for a brief trade treaty and marriage alliance with the HRE) and had been at war with everyone on the map except Poland and Lithuania. You seem to have gotten something right.

It is presumptuous of me offering opinion, as I have not yet used any BGR. You mentioned defending in forts and bridges, they seem to be in M2 for the benefit of the human player and the historic Crusaders certainly built castles everywhere. Sacking of coastal settlements once there is enough money to buy a ship, a catapult and a few cheap units (the Knights of Malta sometimes resorted to piracy). Calling a Crusade, as already mentioned, was useful in a campaign in which I had ended up defending Jerusalem from a Jihad. Conquering islands, as they are safe from the computer player. The historical Crusaders did not retreat to Ireland but made a quick exit to Cyprus, then Rhodes and then Malta. Presumably they hoped one day they would return to the Holy Lands.

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

Fatimids are an easy kill in early era if you take out their larger castles where they spam horse archers and other quality troops, at least thats how I remember the early era strategy was. Late era is much more rougher.

[TheBard]

Fatimids are an easy kill in early era if you take out their larger castles where they spam horse archers and other quality troops, at least thats how I remember the early era strategy was. Late era is much more rougher.

Unfortunately, I've never really had enough troops to go on the offensive at all. I suppose I could try to make a push in the first few turns, but I'm always focused on trying to get money and build up my cities. The best I've been able to do so far is give up Edessa very early and take Acre (and once I was able to take Tortosa, but I still ended up getting killed pretty quickly). BGR makes it so much harder because it is so important to keep up your Christian percentage in order to get even semi-decent troops (any of the Military Orders troops, light men at arms, even the halfway decent Muslim troops like Kurdish Javelinmen). I end up having to put so much into churches and priests, that I don't have the money or ability to recruit anything better.

This current campaign is in serious trouble. I probably should have taken Strengelicher's advice and called a crusade (preferably on Gaza to create a buffer zone). But as he alluded to, it costs my generals a huge amount of money because European troops take forever to get there. 20-30 turns of waiting usually bankrupts my nobles. And if I join with my king to end the Crusade tax, it causes other problems: 1) huge 5000 hit to treasury and King's personal wealth, and 2) doesn't allow for the other factions to arrive in time to help.

Another country ended up calling a Crusade on Tunis, which didn't help me at all because Sicily already owned it. So now I get the worst of all worlds: big crusade tax, no help in the Levant. Plus it ticked off the Fatimids, who just called a Jihad on Jerusalem. In the meantime, Acre was besieged and taken, and I now have to decide what to do with Jerusalem. Do I try to hold it against all odds, or do I abandon it for now, try to retake Acre, or go for Tortosa and try to hold that with Antioch (which I've held fairly well so far).

Ugh, bad choices all around!

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

Well, BGR certainly complicates things, I'd advise playing the v2 of BGR or just disabling it completely if you want a reasonable campaign as a hard to play nation. Don't get me wrong - I am all for having a harder time against the AI as it is nothing short of retarded in M2, but having so blatant disadvantages as the player gets disgusting.

[brspiritus]

The instruction manual for BGR IV is "The Idiot's Guide to Getting Your Ass Kicked In 5 Turns", no offense to Byg it's a well thought out mod and I think I have to revisit it again playing E/E with Lusted's AI so I can get more used to the nuances before diving into a H/VH using Savage AI. As for your campaign the only thing I can say is give up Jerusalem, there's no way you're going to fight of all the Muslim factions spamming full stacks at you short of using the auto_win cheat.

[Legourou]

In my experience, the faster you take settlements, the easier it gets. At turn one, go ahead and besiege something, get them on the defensive.

They will rally to attack you, which will make taking their settlements easier. They have lots of light armor so just keep running into them with your heavy cavalry and you will be ok.

The longer you wait to go to war, in my opinion, the harder the campaign becomes. The AI develops faster than you, so you must try to match their pace.

If you aren't growing, you're dieing.

[TheBard]

In my experience, the faster you take settlements, the easier it gets. At turn one, go ahead and besiege something, get them on the defensive.

They will rally to attack you, which will make taking their settlements easier. They have lots of light armor so just keep running into them with your heavy cavalry and you will be ok.

The longer you wait to go to war, in my opinion, the harder the campaign becomes. The AI develops faster than you, so you must try to match their pace.

If you aren't growing, you're dieing.

I took your advice, Legourou. We'll see how it goes.

I started over (the 5th or 6th time so far in a row that I've tried to survive Early Era with Crusader States on BGR IV). The previous situation became untenable, as Acre was gone, Antioch defenseless, and Jerusalem besieged by numerous Jihad armies. I might have survived for a few years, but had no long-term prospects for success (especially with having to wait 10 more years for another Crusade).

So this time, I'm playing on Medium Campaign, Hard battles, with BAI and BGR IV still. From the very outset, I abandoned Edessa (too hard to hold for now, no real income, no port, no good troops yet) and took Bohemond and all his troops to besiege the rebel-held Tortosa. It took a few turns to arrive there.

In the meantime, I took Prince Baudouin (sp? I'm not at home) and all his troops and besieged Gaza. And I took King Baldwin and almost all the troops in Jerusalem and besieged Al Aqaba (south/southeast of Gaza).

All three sieges were eventually successful. So far, no real coordinated counterattack from the Fatimids, who are down to only 3-4 cities (and one is southeast of Aqaba, leaving their empire split in half by my new acquisitions.

So that's the good news.

The bad news is that I'm 10,000 florins in debt (and that's before the extra 6400 it will eventually cost to fill the King's supply train), there are no royal children, none of the cities are anywhere near the 70% Christianity threshold to recruit good troops in BGR IV, my kingdom is now too big for universal right to knight, and my income is limited.

I'm slowly starting to disband a few of the prohibitively expensive troops, especially cavalry, like the miles. Eventually, I will need to build churches everywhere. Since the King's wife is dead when the campaign begins (and he is "lame of loin" anyway), and the Prince hasn't had any children yet, I may need to adopt at least one general. I've been declining so far, both because of the cost of them building up their supplies (4800 florins, 1600 at a time) and of the difficulty it makes in having natural children if you adopt too many. But now I have 5 cities (Antioch, Tortosa, Jerusalem, Gaza, Al Aqaba) and only 4 generals, only 2 of which are actually part of the royal family.

Jerusalem has no governor for now while the king placates and assimilates Al Aqaba. I was forward-thinking enough to start the construction of a barracks in Jerusalem on the first turn when I had 10,000 florins. Once Jerusalem gets close to 70% Christian, I'll have to move the King back there to start the countdowns for good troops (and eventually build the Templar and Hospitaller Chapter Houses).

Legourou, your advice has certainly enabled me to try something different. At the very least, this campaign will play out very differently than the other ones (even if I still lose!).

Anyone have thoughts on how to help my treasury fairly quickly? My troops are spread very thinly now, and I don't make much money from taking cities because the King's Chivalric Code orders means no sacking or exterminating. That also makes assimilation very difficult.

I'd like to build markets and ports eventually, but I think Churches have to be the priority if and when I ever have money. In the medium term, I want to take Acre (it has a huge rebel garrison and is unassailable for now).

Should I hold off on adopting in the hopes of getting at least one or two male children soon? With the Long Lived submod on, they come of age at 5 and can at least be governors (but not field generals, since they have no movement).

[Duck of Death]

Pull out and retreat to Ireland!!!!!

With patience, you can easily take out the English then you have your own large beautiful easily defendable island to start plotting your revenge on the Fatamids.

When next they meet your brave Templars, youll be the one coming ashore with multiple stacks to destroy them!!!!

[TheBard]

Pull out and retreat to Ireland!!!!!

With patience, you can easily take out the English then you have your own large beautiful easily defendable island to start plotting your revenge on the Fatamids.

When next they meet your brave Templars, youll be the one coming ashore with multiple stacks to destroy them!!!!

Ha, while that is probably doable, I don't think I'd be able to have any Templars. You can only recruit them from Jerusalem or Antioch, with the Templars Chapter House. Same goes for Hospitallers.

I don't usually like migration campaigns, anyway. If I wanted to take England, I would play as England or France probably. If I ever give up completely on the idea of Crusaders States, I may play as England or France next. Avoiding excommunication is so hard, though!

[Legourou]

Well, you can sack if your King does it, with no penalties, I believe. That's probably your best bet: he'll become rich from all the taking of cities and your treasury will benefit.

You could try suiciding generals? They cost the most on your economy. Or make sure you're only building buildings that generate the most income. Markets are usually not worth it in the short run. Maintain your merchants vigilently. There's plenty of guides on how to maintain the mechanics of your economy, though BGR adds some fun twists to it. In BGR-IV your king can levy a noble tax, correct? I don't remember.

Good luck sorting this out. Conquering is still, in my opinion, the best way to generate money.

[TheBard]

Well, you can sack if your King does it, with no penalties, I believe. That's probably your best bet: he'll become rich from all the taking of cities and your treasury will benefit.

You could try suiciding generals? They cost the most on your economy. Or make sure you're only building buildings that generate the most income. Markets are usually not worth it in the short run. Maintain your merchants vigilently. There's plenty of guides on how to maintain the mechanics of your economy, though BGR adds some fun twists to it. In BGR-IV your king can levy a noble tax, correct? I don't remember.

Good luck sorting this out. Conquering is still, in my opinion, the best way to generate money.

Good points. I guess because I'm a masochist, I don't like the King to violate his own orders. I know I CAN do it, but it violates the spirit of the rule, even though not the letter of it.

The problem with not making markets is that it means you can't have any merchants without them. You start with one merchant, so without building markets you can't get any more merchants. I wonder if building more farms early on would help, though. The biggest issue is that since you can never keep trading rights with the Fatimids or the Seljuks for very long, you can only trade with your own ports or with the Byzantines. That puts a huge crimp on potential money.

I haven't been able to have enough troops to consistently stay on the attack, unfortunately. I lost Al Aqaba to a siege, though I did recently (it's about 1115) retake it. The Seljuks took Acre and are now besieging Antioch. I've held Jerusalem and Gaza the whole time.

I think most of my generals have enough money to survive me calling a Crusade against the Fatimids, maybe against Cairo?

The biggest problem I'm having is that the Fatimid Generals are ridiculously hard to kill. In equal numbers, they seem to be far stronger than my own generals, or than Templars. I'm playing on Hard battles, which might make their morale a bit better, but shouldn't make them stronger. So in order to kill enemy generals (which is how I sometimes get the enemy to rout), it takes at least twice as many of my own elite cavalry (generals, Templars, miles, etc.). And if the enemy army has 2 or more generals, it's almost impossible.

Maybe I should switch to Medium battles if I end up having to restart (again!).

I don't know if I love the idea of rushing to attack all the Fatimids in the west in the first few turns. If I had the troops and generals to do it (I would have to abandon Edessa and Antioch), it might be possible, but it feels a bit too easy. As hard as the AI gets after 5-10 turns, it is incredibly weak and outnumbered in the first 5 turns and might be too easy. Plus, with such a huge kingdom, I'll immediately be into the "Right to Knight restricted" elements, which are my least favorite. I like when I have a small kingdom and any generals can recruit without needing professional staff and being a War Council Member. Still, it might be the only way to go.

[Byg]

Good points. I guess because I'm a masochist, I don't like the King to violate his own orders. I know I CAN do it, but it violates the spirit of the rule, even though not the letter of it.
...

if the king does not violate those orders then they will probably remain. The order is set by the actions of the king, act cruelly enough and you get cruel orders and vice versa. Lead the way you want with your king.

[TheBard]

if the king does not violate those orders then they will probably remain. The order is set by the actions of the king, act cruelly enough and you get cruel orders and vice versa. Lead the way you want with your king.

Ah, ok. That does make sense and helps somewhat. Unfortunately, I made the decision to try ransoming a captured Fatimid family member worth 5000 florins with one of my younger generals. I knew it would violate the orders and result in a summons, but I wanted to either get the money or kill the family member (even though I know the AI keeps adopting to replace the lost generals, most of their "best" generals are now between ages 5 and 16 and not nearly as good as the older ones). The Fatimids refused to pay, the family member was executed, and my general was summoned.

Byg, does that order ever go away? I brought the general to the capital and have left him there, and nothing bad has happened in terms of other generals, but the order remains. Does it only go away when the king dies? Also, thank you so much for the improved gameplay. It is really amazing and adds a ton of depth, and I'm sure it was a huge crazy amount of work to do.

[Byg]

Hi,
there are sections in the manual dealing specifically with that.

[Lifthrasir]

It has been a long time since I used BGRIV. I did a CS campaign with Gracul AI and BGRIV, which was already a challenge. I agree with Legourou: conquering is the best way to survive and make money.
In my CS campaign, I left the northern settlements and focused first on the Fatimids, more specifically in Egypt. Once you have conquered their cities and castles in Egypt, they're not that dangerous anymore for you and you can make good money.Then, once you have secure Egypt, you should be able to move North and East again to face the Turks. Beware that if a jihad is called, Moors will come from Egypt. Byzzies can also land in Egypt sometimes. Don't leave it without protection.