'Are some units not worth recruiting?'

[Shaggy1973]

I can see barely no stat difference from hastati, just an increased cost. These guys are the veterans, not just the rich with good armour. This point is highlighted more when you have the samnite princepes who are essentially expensive Roman Hastati.

Every unit needs a role, and I can see no role for them.

[UsulDaNeriak]

These guys are the veterans, not just the rich with good armour.

Veteran means something different in mid-republican times. I understood, that veterans are soldiers which already had served in 16 campaigns, and are not further obliged to military service. But some still followed voluntarily their general in case of a call to arms. Like the 6000 veterans which supported Scipio on his invasion of Africa. Their integration into an exercitus was different. It depends on needs and opportunities.

But you are right, the Principes are usually, but not neccesarily older and therefore mostly more experienced and they might have a bit better equipment, but not that much different. Actually social rank and wealth might have played a bigger role than experience, if it comes to hastati, principes and triarii.

Actually, the upkeep costs for soldiers in the mid-republic was not that much different anyways. The roman senate either payed nothing or just the food. But the recruitment model of Rome 2 does not reflect the differences between a militia and a professional army.

I also would like to see more diversified roles. But I doubt, it would be historically correct. But if they are not that much better or different, the price should'nt be much higher either.

[zonks40]

I'm no member of the team, but I have seen it written that they have added a lot of units lately, and they still need to go back and balance them all, remember this is version 0.82e, until it's version 1.0, it's far from a finished product.

[corsair831]

they're SLIGHTLY better, but sometimes that's enough

obviously the hastati should be more cost-efficient otherwise you'd use nothing but principes, however elite troops still do have a use (even if they're only a little bit better)

taking and holding the top of ladders
holding the centre line against the toughest enemies, for the longest time (i've had principes fight to the death when my hastati have all ran away at around 1/3 unit strength)
holding a thin line (shallow ranks, as they can win man to man against weaker units, they can fight more of them at the same time, giving the rest of your army more flexibility)

put simply, i just use them for the most difficult jobs, and from my experience they do a fine job of it, even though it's only a slight statistical advantage they have

[Selea]

I can see barely no stat difference from hastati, just an increased cost.

You see wrong. They have more armor, more defense and more attack than Hastati.

The "barely no difference" (as you put it) in attack and defense in DeI means much more than in vanilla. In vanilla 2 point means very little, in DeI they means already a substantial difference since the stats are all much lower (it's obvious that if the scale is 100 then a value of 2 means a thing, if the scale is 10 a value of 2 means a completely different one).

Just making a couple of tests would have told you that.

[Shaggy1973]

You see wrong. They have more armor, more defense and more attack than Hastati.

The "barely no difference" (as you put it) in attack and defense in DeI means much more than in vanilla. In vanilla 2 point means very little, in DeI they means already a substantial difference since the stats are all much lower (it's obvious that if the scale is 100 then a value of 2 means a thing, if the scale is 10 a value of 2 means a completely different one).

Just making a couple of tests would have told you that.

Oh I see, thank you for the informative answer.

Kind of makes the stats a little pointless then I guess? Therefore those weapon upgrade buildings are hugely important!

With regards stats, I was referring specifically to the Camillian Samnite princepes vs the Camillian Roman Hastati, where the difference is just two attack (visible difference).

What are the hidden differemce you speak of? I know hastati are medium infantry and princepes are heavy, I'm guessing they have more 'mass'? How does this effect?

I will run a couple of tests now - thanks

P.S. hope the thread has (or develops) some use for you...

[Ardri]

This thread title is no good. It asks a question then immediately answers it by stating that princepes are "roleless". I for 1 use principes in my armies as my second line and "shock" troops. Once a unit of hasti has been engaged for a while I pull them back and as the enemy pursues out of formation I counter attack with 1 or 2 units of princepes which usually results in a relatively quick route of the enemy unit and a hole in their line to be exploited. So before declaring units "roleless" consider that others may play differently.

A bit of a rant, but there has been a lot of these "useless" roleless" unit threads lately. People play differently and the DeI team has done a very good job creating unit diversity.

[Shaggy1973]

This thread title is no good. It asks a question then immediately answers it by stating that princepes are "roleless". I for 1 use principes in my armies as my second line and "shock" troops. Once a unit of hasti has been engaged for a while I pull them back and as the enemy pursues out of formation I counter attack with 1 or 2 units of princepes which usually results in a relatively quick route of the enemy unit and a hole in their line to be exploited. So before declaring units "roleless" consider that others may play differently.

A bit of a rant, but there has been a lot of these "useless" roleless" unit threads lately. People play differently and the DeI team has done a very good job creating unit diversity.

Erm...

OK I am not sure why a second line of hastati could not pull the same manoeuvre you describe. What makes the princepes especially useful for you in this situation? As mentioned, they do not appear to be very different from hastati in attack.

In mods I played in R1, hastati were lightly armoured but very high stamina. I used to tire out attacking troops with them, pull them back and counter with princepes. The difference being, the Polybian princepes had excellent attack values. This seemed to make logical sense. I'm not arguing the same should be done here, just wondering what roles I can employ based on the stats I read.

There is no right and wrong here, its just a discussion which I hope may help people. I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering such things. There are a LOT of units to digest in this mod

[Selea]

Kind of makes the stats a little pointless then I guess? Therefore those weapon upgrade buildings are hugely important!

Stats and weapon upgrades are two different things.

Actually stats are MORE important in DeI and I don't understand your logic on saying that they should be "pointless". I told you that an increment of 2, for example, is much more than in vanilla and you then reply that in this way "stats are pointless"? I really cannot understand the logic behind this.

Weapon upgrades, as I said, are not the same thing and they have less impact than stats actually.

[Mhantra]

Those without understanding cannot recognize knowledge. Do you seek to understand, or judge others, thinking they don't understand, when they actually do but you don't recognize it?

[Ano2]

Wow what an arrogant thread title, maybe you should actually compare the stats in game, then go and test them out in game. Do so and you will realise why you should want princepes in your army. A better title would of been perhaps been: 'A discussion on the usefulness of some units' or 'Are some units not worth recruiting?' Instead you single out one unit, make an incorrect argument and then try and make out this is a discussion thread. For shame good sir!

[Shaggy1973]

Wow what an arrogant thread title, maybe you should actually compare the stats in game, then go and test them out in game. Do so and you will realise why you should want princepes in your army. A better title would of been perhaps been: 'A discussion on the usefulness of some units' or 'Are some units not worth recruiting?' Instead you single out one unit, make an incorrect argument and then try and make out this is a discussion thread. For shame good sir!

???

Arrogant? What a strange conclusion for just naming a unit I'm unsure on its role. I will of course amend the thread title if it offends you so much.

[Ano2]

???

Arrogant? What a strange conclusion for just naming a unit I'm unsure on its role. I will of course amend the thread title if it offends you so much.

Arrogance was probably the wrong word, but your new thread title is much better +rep

[corsair831]

you should test it like i said shaggy, have a unit of hastati attack a wall, and a unit of principes attack a wall (admittedly neither should be doing so because sociorum hastati extraodinarum are soooo much better for wall fighting ), but the principes will do a lot better than the hastati

[gornoviceanu]

Well, the closest you can get to roles is this:

First off: infantry, missile units, cavalry.

Infantry can be divided in spears, swords, and shock weapons. They are also judged by their armor, light, medium, heavy. If you want clear roles, I'd suggest you use heavy spearmen as your main line, medium spearmen as your flanks, heavy swordsmen as main line reserve and shock and light/medium swords/axes as flank winners. The specific unit doesn't matter THAT much from my experience, the most important thing is how to use specific categories or troops.

Cavalry are skirmishers, melee or shock. Shock are the ones with devastating charges (you should look to use the heaviest of horsemen for more devastating charges) and melee are quite successful against missile units and melee infantry (NOT spearmen, NOT heavy troops of any kind).

Missile units are more flexible. I use them to pepper the enemy or draw them out of positions. When the actual fight starts, I send them back and use them to support the flanks. After winning a flank, I get them behind the enemy and let them finish their ammo.

[NYG 5]

Well, the closest you can get to roles is this:

First off: infantry, missile units, cavalry.

Infantry can be divided in spears, swords, and shock weapons. They are also judged by their armor, light, medium, heavy. If you want clear roles, I'd suggest you use heavy spearmen as your main line, medium spearmen as your flanks, heavy swordsmen as main line reserve and shock and light/medium swords/axes as flank winners. The specific unit doesn't matter THAT much from my experience, the most important thing is how to use specific categories or troops.

Cavalry are skirmishers, melee or shock. Shock are the ones with devastating charges (you should look to use the heaviest of horsemen for more devastating charges) and melee are quite successful against missile units and melee infantry (NOT spearmen, NOT heavy troops of any kind).

Missile units are more flexible. I use them to pepper the enemy or draw them out of positions. When the actual fight starts, I send them back and use them to support the flanks. After winning a flank, I get them behind the enemy and let them finish their ammo.

what's the main difference between medium and heavy infantry? i would have thought movement speed and stamina VS armour and health, but it seems like in this game the heavier the infantry, the better. especially roman

[LawL_LawL]

what's the main difference between medium and heavy infantry? i would have thought movement speed and stamina VS armour and health, but it seems like in this game the heavier the infantry, the better. especially roman

Medium and Heavy are merely designations by the game engine. The 'real' classification is in the unit stats.

You can look at Epistratoi, Ekdromoi, or Politai for hoplitai sub-types being listed as Heavy but are nowhere near as resilient a unit as something only 'one tier' above them such as standard hoplitai or heavier hoplite variants.

EDIT: Woops that was half a response. Brain isn't working at 3:04.

The other half should have been that the weight designations of units are what determines their 'mass' and how much relative weight the individual soldiers are supposed to have to them. I'm not 100% sure about the exact details but I would say it's not too much to assume better weight values (ie heavier) result in better charge damage for cavalry and other mounted units with a knock-back damage value. Not to mention better formation penetration for all troop types in general.

[Shaggy1973]

a weapon upgrade increases the melee attack stat. They seem linked no? How are they different?

[Selea]

a weapon upgrade increases the melee attack stat. They seem linked no? How are they different?

They do? It's much time I don't play a campaign so I sincerely don't know.

I thought that weapon upgrades only upgraded the damage on the weapon, but if they increase also the attack stat then you are right, I guess.

I will see if I can change that (or change the bonuses appropriately).

[Fedual]

As long as the stats are different and the unit has been made by DeI im happy, the more beautiful units we have to choose from the better