A forgotten holocaust ---- The Mass Killings of Halabja in 1988

[Aram Kurdo]

Hello To All Total Warians, this is my first Thread.
i wanted to post this thread in 16th actually, but believe me im now in recovery myself from the depression and being wailful and mournful of what a great disaster and tragedy this catastrophe was. i could not stop my Tears in my Eyes when heard about a mother and another, a boy’s Story, were telling about how Ba'this in Anfal Capaign, invaded them splited them abused them butchered them and chemicalled them and buried them in mass graves.
unfortunately the Documentary i saw has not been published on internet or anywhere except BBC Persian with English Subtitle. nothing can really give you the understanding of how was the deplorability and woefulness of the situation. unfortunately unlike The Holocust and and like Armenian Genocide, Iraqi Kurdish Genocide is very little known and also less documented. the reasons are many. Kurds dont have an State to be known since many years fighting for it. or even Westerns hand in the Genocide, and the hardness situation for journalists to reach there. but i will link you some Sources and some harsh and terrible and awful Videos and Pictures that only shows some little things that happened and not the perfect whole true sentimental view of the tragic story. but its better than nothing:
(Note that the numbers are from 1990 and still many mass graves has not been found and many missed and never was founded or to be known. so the numbers definitely are higher than official). Summarized Sources >>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack
http://www.kurdishgenocide.com/
http://uk.krg.org/genocide/pages/pag...=130000&pnr=37
http://uk.krg.org/genocide/pages/pag...=170000&pnr=48
http://www.justice4genocide.com/survivor_stories.php
http://www.ibtimes.com/25-years-afte...abja-iraq-city http://rudaw.net/english/interview/23082013 and search for more.......


Some Videos and Images: >>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=vn6unMAhl6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIeN0anJ1iA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBk4c8wfnMM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux2ez7TPxVw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdhgy9EuRNc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH21Lp0vYiE (See the Next one too).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWOSgybdGrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLz4eXdZgpQ
and ther's too much more you should search yourself to find them.


i really could not find a better website for pictures. but you can google it >> https://www.google.com/search?q=hala...ed=0CAkQ_AUoAQ


search in "Al Anfal Campaign/Genocide and any keyword related to this. still you need to search more....


but Kurdish Genocide is not only halabja. many years before that "BloodyFriday"’s massacre, since 60s, the Ba'th Regime and Saddam Hussain were planning and executing many ways of Wiping out the Kurds and fully genocide them! since 1950s specially when Saddam’s Coupe for power, until the fall of Saddam. this means Kurds over than 40 years under full Suppression Oppression and Absolute Terror and Tyranny. for one example, in complete peace, suddenly soldiers attacked villages of Barzan Clan and took every "Fight able Age", men and Boys some 8000 over than 13 years old were taken to the camps and mass killed them there and shot them in back to fall in death pits in southern of Iraq for that their body never to be found. Arabization of many cities including Oil Potential region like Kirkuk and force migrate them to south western parts and place them with Arabs of Iraq & Palestine. RAZING over 4500 Villages TO THE GROUND and sent or killed the whole villagers. Chemical many cities and villages with Sarin and nerve gas to leave no chance of letting them live again. but they were not had the chance of be Filmed and documented...


But indeed Halabja is a symbolic sign of what was done these years to Kurdish People, that no one knew or cared even now. Halabja was the shouts and tears and misfortunes of how Kurds suffered there. because it was city not village to be covered and not even a single video be recorded. And Saddam’s Regime knew that so they mostly Attacked Villages than Cities. That’s why Halabja’s Massacre was more obvious than the rest of Anfal Campaign and other Kurdish Genocides.
The difference of Armenian and Iraqi Kurdish Genocide with others like Holocust, is that its now the WOMEN and CHILDREN that are victims too and even the Most, and even Animals!
When you see a 12 year old girl carrying her 6 year old sister and fleeing with cry and fear, while all of her family died from bombards or in Chemical Radius.
When you see a little boy miraculously survived from Mass Graves and flees to desert while again his whole family died. And when I say whole family, not only parents and brothers and sisters I mean all but even cousins and other persons of the family and Relatives, so there no one is to protect or adopt him/her. i had a friend in Germany was a Kurd and he said he has lost his all relatives and family! some 23 People!
Also Fathers and Mothers saw their Child infected by the gas and dying in front of their eyes and others saw their children’s body torn apart. and even parents that missed their child don’t know they were in Iran or even don’t know they were alive or not and have not seen them in all these 26 years since the Massacre and still no News about them. Means that even if they are alive, but in Islamic Republic of Iran’s law they can not have certificate and recognizer of anything and means he/she does not exist and have no rights but always as refugees with no respect.
The little children see their Home Destroyed or Razed, and Father & Mother, Brothers and Sisters, even their pets, Relatives, fell without any moves and any voice coming out from them .

"HOW do you feel when you put yourself in their situations? How do you think about the world? You still are happy or natural about west was/is silence about what happened to you? and even their aid of committing Genocide?"

indeed the worse fact is that this is documented and filmed about ONLY Halabja! while in their History, Kurds suffered so much more times of being Mass Killed & Genocided and force migrations and banning of their any points of Their Ancient cultures like language customs and clothes. Genocides of Kurds in Fascist Turkey, Assad's Familyand Syria in General. and also oppression of Kurds in Iran. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_genocide (this is very very few Documented and Researched)
i dont think any nation or ethnic has suffered all this misfortunes, calamities and disasters in Human History!


I had much, much to tell, but not in this post nor in any long texts or even Videos can really show and make you understand what really happened and how really people Suffered.


So its yours importance to humanity and how much you care and call yourself as “Human” because there are very lots of things and events that Yours and (Controlled) World Media “Don’t Care” or simply “Covers” the Crime because they have hands in it too. but a single American soldier's death will be in first titles.
So its yours how much you really believe your claim of Democracy, Humanity, Care for the world you live in it. so its yours duty then to research more in internet and archives or anywhere anyway to understand the depth of the tragic and violation of human rights. The simple rights that many ethnics & nations were/are banned and divested from them.


So please search for more links videos and images. Because its not like Holocust that the world support it at any cost to be full known. It was but covered from the world and no one to support it, and even somehow against being world wide. I said, its your Humanitarian Duty …. Rest is up to yours.

[Lazzeer]

I think the reason that the massive human rights violations committed against the Kurdish people in Iraq don't get more coverage is because they don't fit into a neat narrative. Neo-Conservatives/Interventionists might cite them as a reason for deposing Saddam, but simultaneously it's awkward because the American government supported Saddam in the 1980's, when the worst of the offenses took place. Simultaneously Saddam's treatment of the Kurds is embarrassing to the anti-war crowd, many of whom drift dangerously close to (and often outrightly) condoning Saddam, as it's a prime example of the horrific nature of Iraq under the Saddamist Ba'ath party.

In short the West largely ignores the al-Anfal campaign because it's convenient, as nobody comes out of it well. It's not fair, but it's the truth.

Edit: Removed part of post saying not to blame Jews for the fact that the media doesn't cover al-Anfal. This wasn't removed because Jews are to blame (they obviously aren't), but because it looks like the posts the comment was responding to have been deleted.

[PointOfViewGun]

*Holocaust*

[Adar]

Thread moved to Vestigia and renamed to avoid debate on which one was the worst.

[Himster]

The Kurdish story is the only positive story that came out of American intervention, probably out of all of American interventional history. Iraqi Kurdistan is probably the nicest place to be in the middle-east, except Dubai perhaps.
However the Kurdish narrative is complicated, the Kurds are seen as terrorists by American ally Turkey, and America doesn't want to ruffle it's allies feathers (the same goes for the Armenian genocide, and yes, pun intended). The situation is even more complicated because of Kurds in Iran (a dangerous country to piss off) and a guerrilla unit in Iraq called P-Jak, whose goal is to fight Iran, and of course the situation is complicated because of what's currently happening in Syria.
As Lazzeer says American support of Saddam during the 80's makes for some very awkward questions, questions that will not be answered.

And something I've never thought of: the anti-war crowd, claiming Iraq was a lovely place before America invaded, they'd rather live in denial, and hat movement is tragically very popular.

Also the correct word is genocide, holocaust requires extensive use of fire.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Who knows if it will even be a positive story, Kurdistan spans a lot of countries.

[hellheaven1987]

Who knows if it will even be a positive story, Kurdistan spans a lot of countries.

Are you implying some countries may block the information?

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Yeah, or do the actual killing. Assuming Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran all decided to make a coalition to break Kurdistan once and for all and exterminate all of the inhabitants, then what exactly could we do to stop them (the UN)? I mean I suppose China, Russia, France, Britain and America can call veto but what exactly would we do? Russia and China might prefer to not get involved, America would be all for it if it can get some oil, Britain might falsify some information and lie to their populace and unless an extremely detailed plan can be made France would be slightly reluctant to invade.
Besides that would just anger the countries even more, it would be as chaotic as Iraq but over 6 times the size.

Honestly the idea of a Kurdish state is ing impossible. From one minority to another, I would suggest you suck some serious balls from whose ever country it is you live in. That's the only way I can see some kind of Kurdish state. Kurds are relatively liberal compared to some of the more hard core conservatives in those areas which I see as a good thing if that kind of mentality could be diffused over there to some extent. However I doubt that breaking off into armed bands that can't even agree on what to do is going to make any of those countries happy.

[PointOfViewGun]

Yeah, or do the actual killing. Assuming Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran all decided to make a coalition to break Kurdistan once and for all and exterminate all of the inhabitants, then what exactly could we do to stop them (the UN)? I mean I suppose China, Russia, France, Britain and America can call veto but what exactly would we do? Russia and China might prefer to not get involved, America would be all for it if it can get some oil, Britain might falsify some information and lie to their populace and unless an extremely detailed plan can be made France would be slightly reluctant to invade.
Besides that would just anger the countries even more, it would be as chaotic as Iraq but over 6 times the size.

Honestly the idea of a Kurdish state is ing impossible. From one minority to another, I would suggest you suck some serious balls from whose ever country it is you live in. That's the only way I can see some kind of Kurdish state. Kurds are relatively liberal compared to some of the more hard core conservatives in those areas which I see as a good thing if that kind of mentality could be diffused over there to some extent. However I doubt that breaking off into armed bands that can't even agree on what to do is going to make any of those countries happy.

Are you sure about that?

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

A lot of the Kurds in Northern Iraq are pretty liberal. I can't say the same for all those bat insane Marxists and all those Jihadist groups but there are a lot of progressive thinking Kurds out there man.

[PointOfViewGun]

A lot of the Kurds in Northern Iraq are pretty liberal. I can't say the same for all those bat insane Marxists and all those Jihadist groups but there are a lot of progressive thinking Kurds out there man.

I know there are for sure but I doubt there are enough of them to generalize them as a relatively liberal group. For Turkey, one of the first Kurdic rebellion was to bring back the Caliphate and turn Turkey into a religious state. Quite a large portion of the issues like child marriage are also stemming from Kurdic communities.

So, I'd want to check if you had any data on that.

[dogukan]

A lot of the Kurds in Northern Iraq are pretty liberal. I can't say the same for all those bat insane Marxists and all those Jihadist groups but there are a lot of progressive thinking Kurds out there man.

Which Marxist Kurds are you referring to? The Marxist pulse in the Kurdish area had been the main "liberalizing force".I doubt Kurdish entry to liberal values has anything to do with classical liberal literature. It was the revolutionary groups and Marxists and finally PKK which made "liberal" values became accepted in the Kurdish population.
PKK propoganda on gender equality, freedom, harmony with nature and their dealings with "oppression" is what turned them so progressive.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I don't know what it's called but I recall reading about a hard core Stalinist like party somewhere in Kurdistan.

Many of the Kurdish liberals reside in Iraq if I am not mistaken.

[Caesar Germanico]

I wonder, Saddam had further plans to persecute Kurds or the community living in Northern Iraq was fairly pacified (subjected)?Did Saddam continue with the killings between post 1 gulf war and 2?

[Aram Kurdo]

I wonder, Saddam had further plans to persecute Kurds or the community living in Northern Iraq was fairly pacified (subjected)?Did Saddam continue with the killings between post 1 gulf war and 2?

yes he wanted to wipe out the Kurds as The Turks always love that be done. Turks even now i heard many of them praised Saddam to Genocide Kurds & Assyrians. because they did it before in Ottomon's and Republican (Super Racist Ataturkists, Kamalists).

yes indeed but was very limited after 1991 as not USA but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Mitterrand that banned somehow we can call it Banning of Using Airforce to Kill The Civilians, that was why that Saddam could not attack with air so he and his forces could not infiltrate the kurdish regions anymore due to Peshmargas and gerrilas in the Mountains and cities.

it was but only for USA benefit that in 2003 Kurdish Autonomy was established and freed.(and Turkey was furious about it! Iran hated and syria.....!!) or still USA would support Saddam!!

[Ariamanesh]

Kurds were are and will be for ever Iranian
The Iranian regime should take the side of them and help them to release themselves from Arabs and Turks yoke and build an independent state in Iraq,Turkey and Syria!
The Kurds deserve it!

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

So you want to destabilize the Middle East? With a Shiite regime?

I'm sorry but as much as I hate seeing suffering I'm also a calculating bastard, doing that would likely bring endless war in the Middle East and all for the sake of a few Kurds and the countless ambitions of Persianized Shiites. Yeah let's free the Kurds from their oppression... by oppressing everyone else.

The only hope the Kurds have is finding autonomy by supporting the recognized governments that they live inside.

[hellheaven1987]

The only hope the Kurds have is finding autonomy by supporting the recognized governments that they live inside.

Or Kurds can simply lure the Turks, Arabs and Persians into a war of extermination against eachothers, and once all three die off, then Kurds can colonize whole Middle East.

[Aram Kurdo]

sorry for late coming i could not be connected.

Kurds were are and will be for ever Iranian
The Iranian regime should take the side of them and help them to release themselves from Arabs and Turks yoke and build an independent state in Iraq,Turkey and Syria!
The Kurds deserve it!

KURDS are IRanian not Persian! but Persians have siezed Iran for themselves! there is no country called IRAN! it is but Iranian Race & Iraian Plateau because iran was destroyed as foots of Islam was puted there!

Or Kurds can simply lure the Turks, Arabs and Persians into a war of extermination against eachothers, and once all three die off, then Kurds can colonize whole Middle East.

Personal attacks removed. if Kurds were like you imperialist, they would have a great country from ancient times after Median Empire! but Kurds only and only want peace Independece and their Rights be recognized not to attack and genocide like Turks Arabs and Persians!
and know that these hordes came to our neighbourhood we welcomed them but they wanted anything be in their possession and did anything to gain it by killing butchering destroying and force migrations.
and it was USA & UK in 1921 in treaty of SEVERE, that despite they promised Independent Country or at least Autonomous regions, they suppressed the Natural human Rights for the kurds and they aided and helped the Fascist Racist Regimes to suppress them too! yes the UK & USA that they Claim they bring Democracy for all the world!

but sooner or later, they will fully satisfy that they can not trample rights of mankind anymore and should give and hold the rights for free people! although i know They, Western Governments specially US will do that only in matters of their Benefits!.

Hope Freedom for all Mankind.....

[Euphoric]

The only hope the Kurds have is finding autonomy by supporting the recognized governments that they live inside.

Or by weathering the comically clumsy storm that is U.S. foreign policy and declare independence once its over. Seems to have worked for them in Iraq...