greek reforms: metoikoi thureophoroi hoplitai?

[PonySlaystation]

hey guys,

there is one thing that i really want to know: are "metoikoi thureophoroi hoplitai" part of the first greek "Thureos" reforms for sparta or just normal starting units?

accounting to http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...of-Recruitment "metoikoi hoplites" are starting units but they are also called "thureophoroi" which confuses me a bit because the first greek reform is called "Thureos".

in my new carthage campaign the roman reforms hit as they should at turn 50 (message came as well) but i didnt get any message for the greek global reforms which should hit on turn 55 and the AI isnt recruiting any pikes (or any other units except those "metoikoi thureophoroi hoplitai") atm which should be prove that the reforms worked i guess. the only other greek faction i could check is athens but they arent recruiting anything for many turns because they havent been in a war for pretty long. any other faction i could check is either destroyed or they already have pikes since the start/are on the other end of the map.

just want to know if my campaign is broken or not :/ (using GEM, Aztec, DeI less squalor mod (by iverbeth), Dei less agents (by dresden i think) + agents balance (by Yarkis), DeI BoW units readded (by damien007) and BullGod Unit Cards and ofc DeI 0.82e). was playing with all those mods since turn one and just updated DeI.

i just cant find any indicator that the reform actually did hit even 30 turns later.

would be thankful for any help.

[LawL_LawL]

Could try starting a fresh Sparta campaign and checking their unit rosters? As far as I can tell anything with the terminology Thureophoroi would be indicative of the post-Thureos reforms, and I haven't noticed anything contrary to this in my encounters with Hellenic factions.

[PonySlaystation]

its just the AI seems to spam lower tier hoplites with some cav and skirmishers as hellenistic faction even after the reforms (also when they lose an army and recruit a new one). this unit was the only one i saw the AI actually use (maybe 2-3 in a 20 stack). athens or sparta didnt use any pikes so far which is ok but even macedon and seleucids (pontus/epirus and ptolemaioi are already destroyed) dont use pikes at all. maybe 1-2 units sometimes..the rest of the army are very low quality troops :/

[fernando77]

its just the AI seems to spam lower tier hoplites with some cav and skirmishers as hellenistic faction even after the reforms (also when they lose an army and recruit a new one). this unit was the only one i saw the AI actually use (maybe 2-3 in a 20 stack). athens or sparta didnt use any pikes so far which is ok but even macedon and seleucids (pontus/epirus and ptolemaioi are already destroyed) dont use pikes at all. maybe 1-2 units sometimes..the rest of the army are very low quality troops :/

I have been at war with the Seleucids for 40 years and I can say that they definitely use pikes and their vassals do as well. In fact even though I have the seleucids cornered now to their last remaining full province, they make their armies out of cataphracts, silvershiled pikemen, machaphoroi, royal peltasts, and hoplites/eastern spearmen.

[PonySlaystation]

I have been at war with the Seleucids for 40 years and I can say that they definitely use pikes and their vassals do as well. In fact even though I have the seleucids cornered now to their last remaining full province, they make their armies out of cataphracts, silvershiled pikemen, machaphoroi, royal peltasts, and hoplites/eastern spearmen.

nice one do you maybe use any recruitment mod like "Better AI Recruitment" by Litharion or is it only DeI?

i was just really concerned because i didnt find any units of the thureos reform except spartans "metoikoi thureophoroi hoplitai" even 30 turns later and i am still not 100% sure if this unit is a specific reforms unit since metoikoi hoplites are clarified as starting units in the reforms guide. i am again trying to click through the campaign and scout with my agents to find a specific thureos reforms unit so i can see if my other mods are compatible with DeI 0.8.

[fernando77]

nice one do you maybe use any recruitment mod like "Better AI Recruitment" by Litharion or is it only DeI?

i was just really concerned because i didnt find any units of the thureos reform except spartans "metoikoi thureophoroi hoplitai" even 30 turns later and i am still not 100% sure if this unit is a specific reforms unit since metoikoi hoplites are clarified as starting units in the reforms guide. i am again trying to click through the campaign and scout with my agents to find a specific thureos reforms unit so i can see if my other mods are compatible with DeI 0.8.

I actually do use that mod hope you end up solving your problem!

[PonySlaystation]

special agent jezebel saved my day i just turbo-clicked my way through the campaign and my spy found seleucid and bactrian armies with thureos hoplites so my mods work fine with the reforms and there is probably no message for greek reforms as for romes reforms.

just the army composition could be better. seleucids are still using mostly hillmen and maybe 2-4 newer units even in new armies so i think ill give the recruitment mod a try as well but i need to start a new campaign for this.
but first ill finish my carthage campaign^^

[LawL_LawL]

special agent jezebel saved my day i just turbo-clicked my way through the campaign and my spy found seleucid and bactrian armies with thureos hoplites so my mods work fine with the reforms and there is probably no message for greek reforms as for romes reforms.

just the army composition could be better. seleucids are still using mostly hillmen and maybe 2-4 newer units even in new armies so i think ill give the recruitment mod a try as well but i need to start a new campaign for this.
but first ill finish my carthage campaign^^

That's weird, I'm finding the troop qualities in my game to be pretty good for the Athenian and Daorsi armies I've seen, as well as those of the Hellenic League comprised of a short-lived Sparta and still existent Knossos. The Thureos reforms most notably make them drop (for the most part) Machairaphoroi for Thureos Machairaphoroi (or whatever it is they're actually called) as well as complementing their regular hoplites with the Thureophoroi Hoplitai. Though yes, I do believe they're meant to keep the existing roster of units as their reforms are not as 'overriding' as the Roman ones.

I used Better AI Recruitment before but disabled it when it conflicted with the initial release of DeI 0.8. Since then it seems DeI's organic AI recruitment priorities are much improved and I can't really see what's wrong. Are you using any other campaign AI adjustments or playing on a different difficulty level as I?

[Litharion]

That's weird, I'm finding the troop qualities in my game to be pretty good for the Athenian and Daorsi armies I've seen, as well as those of the Hellenic League comprised of a short-lived Sparta and still existent Knossos. The Thureos reforms most notably make them drop (for the most part) Machairaphoroi for Thureos Machairaphoroi (or whatever it is they're actually called) as well as complementing their regular hoplites with the Thureophoroi Hoplitai. Though yes, I do believe they're meant to keep the existing roster of units as their reforms are not as 'overriding' as the Roman ones.
I used Better AI Recruitment before but disabled it when it conflicted with the initial release of DeI 0.8. Since then it seems DeI's organic AI recruitment priorities are much improved and I can't really see what's wrong. Are you using any other campaign AI adjustments or playing on a different difficulty level as I?

I hope they are improved , the new Better AI Recruitment sub mod for DeI is like an expansion of the initial BAR which is part of DeI in a modified way and therefore not compatible.

[PonySlaystation]

I used Better AI Recruitment before but disabled it when it conflicted with the initial release of DeI 0.8.

Litharion wrote that the mod should be compatible with DeI 0.82e but i encountered something strange when using Better AI Recruitment (BAR) with DeI (maybe you meant this conflict?)
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...6#post13716436


i tried a new ptolemaioi campaign on VH/N today with BAR enabled. i am 20 turns in and the seleucid army already consist of at least 5-6 pikes and overall very balanced armies. looking very promising so far!

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...5E3FF7B6FDA12/
http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/...6B76A210C80D3/ pike-wall + flanking/reinforcing swords + cav + skirmisher and even a mercenary elephant..pretty much how i would build an army (well maybe better sword units) looks much better than spamming weak/mediocre hoplites imo.

in my "testing-clickthrough" carthage campaign (turn 70-80 i think) without BAR on VH/N the seleucids were in war the whole time with multiple factions and really got big (conquered egypt, parts of cappadocia and most of arabia) and even 25 turns after the greek reforms hit their armies still have a pretty weak core with basic hoplites and hillmen units and sometimes 1-2 thureos reform units and maybe 1-2 pike units (they had pikes even pre-reform so it seems they didnt recruit them at all):

http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/...3CAFDFC9EC154/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...128E88D07685C/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...4E1B7AF175D4D/
http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/...BED37E691C02E/


i guess i am just unlucky in this "clickthrough"-campaign but its a shame the AI cant upgrade their armies properly in the later stages of the campaign (if their armies never get killed). maybe its a hardcoded thing the DeI team cant do much about :/ i'd like to fight against fully reformed/balanced armies than this basic stuff^^ no offense