Renewed protests in Turkey

[General Mosh]

After a boy who was hurt in the clashes with police in Istanbul last year finally succumbed to his wounds today, Turkish protesters took to the streets in anger. Clashes between protesters and police started soon after the protests began. Tomorrow is the funeral for the boy, and more incidents are expected. Your thoughts?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26526198

[sleepyx732]

They're protesting. What for exactly?

Hey maybe another kid will die in this years protest.

[IZob]

They're protesting. What for exactly?

Everything that is wrong with the more increasingly authoritarian government.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Everything that is wrong with the more increasingly authoritarian government.

So if the boy survived, everything would have been ok?

[General Mosh]

So if the boy survived, everything would have been ok?

Where does that come from? Because it clearly was not what he was suggesting.

[IZob]

So if the boy survived, everything would have been ok?

Its a piece of the jigsaw puzzle.

[Slydessertfox]

So if the boy survived, everything would have been ok?

It was the spark similarly to the guy in Tunisia who set himself on fire starting the Arab spring. But theres obviously been simmering resentment.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'm not too fond of hitting the streets over the death of anyone but it fuels people nonetheless. What fuels people even more is if a regular demonstration is intercepted by police forces. The demonstration started in front of the hospital that the kid died in. Police used tear gas and pressurized water to disperse the crowd. After that the demonstrations grew exponentially, not just throughout Turkey but throughout the world as well.



The demonstrations about everything that's wrong with AKP. There is the ongoing corruption charges that are building up on top of what's been happening since the Gezi demonstrations. These demonstrations will continue with various magnitudes as long as AKP is in power.

[alhoon]

The demonstrations about everything that's wrong with AKP. There is the ongoing corruption charges that are building up on top of what's been happening since the Gezi demonstrations. These demonstrations will continue with various magnitudes as long as AKP is in power.

I would just like to say here that while you're of course right to protest against corruption in your country etc, nepotism and corruption come hand to hand with so many years in power for one party.
AKP has done a LOT of good for your country. Economic growth, diplomatic ties, reducing the power of the military from the top of my mind. I don't know how unemployment, education and health care are, but I expect they increased too in the decade of fantastic economic growth and prosperity that AKP brought to Turkey.


Again, I'm not saying everything is right but perhaps some of you are too young to remember how Turkey was 12 years ago. I believe much of the prosperity is because of AKP, so I would expect more gratitude.

[PointOfViewGun]

I would just like to say here that while you're of course right to protest against corruption in your country etc, nepotism and corruption come hand to hand with so many years in power for one party.
AKP has done a LOT of good for your country. Economic growth, diplomatic ties, reducing the power of the military from the top of my mind. I don't know how unemployment, education and health care are, but I expect they increased too in the decade of fantastic economic growth and prosperity that AKP brought to Turkey.

Again, I'm not saying everything is right but perhaps some of you are too young to remember how Turkey was 12 years ago. I believe much of the prosperity is because of AKP, so I would expect more gratitude.

All myths. AKP have been corrupt since day one. Maybe it wasn't as consolidated through out the party but it's leaders were still corrupt. I'm not too young not to remember how it was 12 years ago. Throughout AKP's rule unemployment rate did not fall much, but it did rise. The growth under AKP is rightfully labeled as "growth without employment". I label the current economy as "make up economy". Economic growth happens no matter what. What happened in Turkey was merely the rich getting rich. Well, mostly friends of AKP that is. What diplomatic ties you talk of I don't know. We're still using the most expensive gas in the world even though we live close to gas producing countries. The price tripled during AKP's rule. Healthcare is certainly better in Turkey. If you have money that is. Quality of service you'd get from public healthcare is debatable. They forced inexperienced and under-educated doctors to serve in clinics and gave part of their salaries based on how many prescriptions they write. That's the quality of public healthcare in Turkey. Oh, the drug prices were pushed down a lot. How? By milking more people with tax. They even forced people to pay a made up social security tax from people who don't work but has a family member that has a higher than minimum wage. There are also rumors that companies are not bringing certain needed drugs because they're not gonna make money from those prices. I can go on... There is nothing for me to be grateful to AKP. They've done much more harm and the good they did is negligible. If you have any particular thing please point it out.

A lot of people in Turkey are comparing this boy's death to the death of the Greek boy who was shot by the police a couple of years ago in Greece. It's pointed out that the prime minister apologized and that the interior minister resigned. Erdoğan simply said that the stock exchange won't be affected with the boy's death...

[alhoon]

I label the current economy as "make up economy". Economic growth happens no matter what. What happened in Turkey was merely the rich getting rich. Well, mostly friends of AKP that is. What diplomatic ties you talk of I don't know.

Believe this since it comes from someone living in a country that's 6 years in recession. Growth doesn't happen no matter what. You now have a TRILLION $ GDP. 12 years ago you were a 2nd world, struggling economy. Now you have an industrialized, powerful and growing economy with the good and the bad.
Yes, the rich would always have better stuff. But from Greeks visiting/living in Turkey we hear that quality of life increases steadily.
"Your friends don't count as a source!" I know. But my mother visited Capadocia and Costantinople 10-12 years ago and visited Constantinople last year. The difference was visible she said. She talked about a transformation in Western Turkey. She saw many more big and nice office buildings, cars, swimming pools etc.

Diplomacy: Turkey (and Brazil) are rising stars. Yes, you get expensive gas. You also act as mediators in global disputes, Syria etc. Should I mention the WAY better relations you have with us?

Limiting the power of the all-powerful generals: You are correct about AKP's shady tactics, but at least they limited the power of the generals and the army. AKP is not the poster-boy of liberty, but at least they didn't stage like 3 coups the past 50 years.

And most importantly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey
"Turkey's growing economy and diplomatic initiatives have led to its recognition as a regional power.^{[10][18][19]"} I left the links there on purpose. Check them, wiki isn't blowing smoke there.

A lot of people in Turkey are comparing this boy's death to the death of the Greek boy who was shot by the police a couple of years ago in Greece. It's pointed out that the prime minister apologized and that the interior minister resigned. Erdoğan simply said that the stock exchange won't be affected with the boy's death...

That is indeed bad, I didn't say everything is fine, because there are obviously issues.

What you experience now is a reach for better functioning democracy, that reasonably comes after a long period of prosperity. AKP Gave you prosperity. You know want more liberty. Understandable and actually a good thing and nice goal.

As a note, you should also strive for better education.

[PointOfViewGun]

Believe this since it comes from someone living in a country that's 6 years in recession. Growth doesn't happen no matter what. You now have a TRILLION $ GDP. 12 years ago you were a 2nd world, struggling economy. Now you have an industrialized, powerful and growing economy with the good and the bad.
Yes, the rich would always have better stuff. But from Greeks visiting/living in Turkey we hear that quality of life increases steadily.
"Your friends don't count as a source!" I know. But my mother visited Capadocia and Costantinople 10-12 years ago and visited Constantinople last year. The difference was visible she said. She talked about a transformation in Western Turkey. She saw many more big and nice office buildings, cars, swimming pools etc.

Diplomacy: Turkey (and Brazil) are rising stars. Yes, you get expensive gas. You also act as mediators in global disputes, Syria etc. Should I mention the WAY better relations you have with us?

Limiting the power of the all-powerful generals: You are correct about AKP's shady tactics, but at least they limited the power of the generals and the army. AKP is not the poster-boy of liberty, but at least they didn't stage like 3 coups the past 50 years.

And most importantly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey
"Turkey's growing economy and diplomatic initiatives have led to its recognition as a regional power.^{[10][18][19]"} I left the links there on purpose. Check them, wiki isn't blowing smoke there.

Growth does happen no matter what for a developing country with the size of Turkey that's not tied to any union. Turkey was growing before AKP came as well, admittedly not in the same rate. We haven't reached a trillion dollars in nominal terms as well. Turkish economy was industrialized and growing 12 years ago as well. The struggling and powerful part is subjective and debatable. Your friend saw skyscrapers. Wanna guess how many of them were started to be constructed before or during the first years of AKP?

What better relationships do we have with Greece exactly? Any good relationship we have is a product of Ismail Cem that served as the foreign minister before AKP came to power. I don't care if they lift visa requirements with some random small country and I don't see what they accomplished in Syria.

AKP did stage coups. They are called civil coups. They lifted the separation of powers in the government thanks to help from the EU. They just staged an other one by removing judges, prosecutors and police forces in thousands to cover up corruption charges. The army did not pose a threat to AKP but they used them as a scapegoat to get more votes. You'd be also mistaken if you're equating the kind of coups that Turkey had with the ones Greece had.

If Turkey is a regional power why are we still using the most expensive gas in the world?

[Condottiere 40K]

I doubt it will get to Kievan intensity, mostly because there are limits to how far the police can go in a NATO country.

[justicar5]

I doubt it will get to Kievan intensity, mostly because there are limits to how far the police can go in a NATO country.

That I wouldn't count on.

[Odenat]

Bah, we have elections in less than one month and guess who will win again ? AKP of course.

Well, that's democracy. You must learn to live with it. Protesting at streets doesn't matter, you must convince the people that you will govern better than AKP so they vote for you.

[PointOfViewGun]

Bah, we have elections in less than one month and guess who will win again ? AKP of course.

Well, that's democracy. You must learn to live with it. Protesting at streets doesn't matter, you must convince the people that you will govern better than AKP so they vote for you.

It's not about convincing people that others will govern better. It's about turning idiots into a human beings that have acceptable intelligence.

[Nesimî]

He was a little kid, out to buy bread, Alevi provacateur my arse.

[Tureuki]

is going on outside of my dorm, they're firing gas bombs into campus.

[Treize]

So why is everybody deleting my posts these days?

--------------

Anyway, I will try again.

So today people I know go to Rotterdam to protest over this stuff. I very much oppose this. We have pro-PKK/Öcalan protests, anti-PKK/Öcalan protests, anti-Erdogan protests, pro-Erdogan protests, childcare protests with people wrapped in Turkish flag hating the Dutch state and such. I would stongly urgue these people to take the plane and visit Gezi Park so they can do whatever they want instead of picking fights with Dutch police and eachother or parading their evil communist "Halk Cephesi" banners around my country, which is not even remotely helpful in removing Rejup Tyaeb anyway.

With that off my mind, I want to reply to the topic at hand.

Again, the question is what do these people want? A guy died because of police violence. This is a bad thing, especially if he was not a protester. But...

Tayyip must go? Sure, he is an scary little dictator and he is going too far in restricting personal freedoms (heard Twitter was banned?!).

The question remains... What is the alternative to him? Until an answer exists for that question I see no real possibility for progress.

The opposition? Not too sure...

I wonder what the current-day CHP actually want, they seem to be branded as a reactionary party only opposing everything Tayyip does without having much of a plan of their own.

The people I personally know who are so much against him are either Deniz Gezmisj idolators or mindless Gazi Pasha worshippers, or both at the same time (!). What do these people have to offer to the country? Marxist fantasies? Do they want to start burning down Kurdish villages again?

Compared to the alternatives Erdogan seems to have a few cards to play. He was the man that brought economic improvement for many people, he was the man that gave up in the ludicrous and detached-from-reality policies towards the Kurdish Issue, he was the one that got rid of laïcist extremism. And when it comes to repression and not caring for Alevi's, it is not like that was started by him. The country has a long legacy with that kind of stuff.


So... What now?

[white-wolf]

So why is everybody deleting my posts these days?

--------------

Anyway, I will try again.

So today people I know go to Rotterdam to protest over this stuff. I very much oppose this. We have pro-PKK/Öcalan protests, anti-PKK/Öcalan protests, anti-Erdogan protests, pro-Erdogan protests, childcare protests with people wrapped in Turkish flag hating the Dutch state and such. I would stongly urgue these people to take the plane and visit Gezi Park so they can do whatever they want instead of picking fights with Dutch police and eachother or parading their evil communist "Halk Cephesi" banners around my country, which is not even remotely helpful in removing Rejup Tyaeb anyway.

With that off my mind, I want to reply to the topic at hand.

Again, the question is what do these people want? A guy died because of police violence. This is a bad thing, especially if he was not a protester. But...

Tayyip must go? Sure, he is an scary little dictator and he is going too far in restricting personal freedoms (heard Twitter was banned?!).

The question remains... What is the alternative to him? Until an answer exists for that question I see no real possibility for progress.

The opposition? Not too sure...

I wonder what the current-day CHP actually want, they seem to be branded as a reactionary party only opposing everything Tayyip does without having much of a plan of their own.

The people I personally know who are so much against him are either Deniz Gezmisj idolators or mindless Gazi Pasha worshippers, or both at the same time (!). What do these people have to offer to the country? Marxist fantasies? Do they want to start burning down Kurdish villages again?

Compared to the alternatives Erdogan seems to have a few cards to play. He was the man that brought economic improvement for many people, he was the man that gave up in the ludicrous and detached-from-reality policies towards the Kurdish Issue, he was the one that got rid of laïcist extremism. And when it comes to repression and not caring for Alevi's, it is not like that was started by him. The country has a long legacy with that kind of stuff.


So... What now?

First, the death of a young person (14 or 16, I am not sure) is very very sad.

Sure, the protesters right now are the Alevi and Leftists/Communists, nevermind the terrorist organisation DHKP-C. You can see these protests as Gezi Park 2.0.

However, many and many people are now against to Erdoğan, including the people who vote for him. I hope he will get a huge defeat in coming local elections. He is becoming more totalirian day to day.