God Save the Rodina!

[Ace_General]

od save the Grand Prince of All the Russias

Setting: Year 1000, right when the Kievan Rus was at the peak of its power and has recently christianized. There is the Veilky Kynaz, or Grand Prince of All the Russias, and then there is to be four princedoms, namely Kiev(Roughly what is now the modern Ethnic Ukrainian parts of the Ukraine.), Poltosk(roughly Belorussia), and Vladimir(roughly half of european russia less Novogord and the Baltic coats+Karelia and Arkanglsk)

The first 3 players to join get a Princedom, and then people who join after that can either work for a prince or the grand prince as a vassal, or do their own thing. And as long as something is historically plausible, it shall be permitted, though to be a prince, you have to be at least of Partially Russian and Norse heritage. The Kynaz's(princes) shall rule their realm as they see fit, provided they do not threaten the good of the entire kingdom with their actions or actively try to overthrow the Veliky Kynaz(grand prince)

Also, the Lands of the Rus are going to be surrounded by many varied and warlike peoples, so focus is going to be on wars of conquest and defense as much as internal poltics and civil wars. We have Fins, Balts, Swedes, Poles, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Kipchayks, Bulgars, Finns and other Urgalic peoples, and Khazars surrounding the kingdom.

Also, if people would be more receptive, I can also move the setting to the 1200s to the time of Alexander Nevsky where you had the mongols ruling part of Russia, but also Swedish and other crusaders attacking too.

In addition, the style of play and the rule set will also have some wargaming elements in addition to RPG-ing.

[Agamemnon]

You know I'm in.

Also, 1000 preferably.

[Ace_General]

You know I'm in.

Also, 1000 preferably.

Which Princedom, Vladimir, Novogorod, or Poltosk?

[Agamemnon]

Novgorod tentatively.

Unless I can has Kiev?

[Ace_General]

Novgorod tentatively.

Unless I can has Kiev?

Kiev is the capital and at least now is the seniorate province and seat of the Grand Princedom, so you have Novgorod(oh yes, and for things to start, I shall be Grand prince so I can make some interesting things happening and get this show on the road, though I dont think Ill have a long rule)

[Trot]

Looks cool I'd play

[Ace_General]

I will get a map of the area up, with a rough approximation of the territorial domains of the Princedoms and our chief rivals. Im going to use one of those zoomed in make your own map of europe

Also, another unique feature of the game is going to be the Russian institution of service aristocracy and the Boyar calss. There will be traditional aristocrats up to the level of Baron, but any further advancement comes from service to the state, and coming from a good family can certainly help, just because you were low born doesnt mean you were out of the picture. In Russia, up until the 18th century, and still to a lesser extent to the time of the revolution, advancement in society and the gaining of pwoer was entirely due to your service to the state, and it didnt matter if your father was a peasent, if you served your prince and showed skill you could be appointed to the highest office. But also, even if a governor or duke was the son of a wealthy magnate and influential family, if he was incompatant or angered the Kynaz(prince) he could have him thrown out no questions asked.

The system actually worked pretty well provided you had a strong Kynaz or Czar, but badly with a weak and politically influenced one. Also, this will make a very interesting twist on the standard Feudal RP. Another interesting twist is all members of the extended family of the Knyaz( or Veilky Knyaz the grand prince, the big pooba) have an equal claim to the throne and it goes to who is strong enough to take it

[Zectorman]

Im interested, mostly because im interested in forming my own princedom/kingdom XD Maybe a Baltic Princedom to lead those barbarians out of obscurity

[Ace_General]

Im interested, mostly because im interested in forming my own princedom/kingdom XD Maybe a Baltic Princedom to lead those barbarians out of obscurity

Well, how about you be the Kynaz of Poltosk, you know, the Princedom that is located in Belarus and also has part of Belarus. That area you can expand into the baltic. ANd that leads me to another point, Princes can expand their Princedom against the people facing them, just dont get the whole Kingdom in a war with like say, a major steppe nomad confederacy or a major power of the time, or you could be removing the Grand Princes bootprints out of the back of your pants

[Agamemnon]

Figured as much. Alright. So do we have to be historical with stuff, or can we do whatever we want? Invasion of Finland for the lulz...

[General Retreat]

I think my main worry with this is that you'd effectively have a small nexus of players in Russia/Ukraine, which are then steadily expanding away from each other, into neighbouring NPC kingdoms. From my outsider's perspective, one of the reasons the current GoT version has simmered down is because it's focused almost solely on beating up NPCs so far. Player interaction is really the reason why I'd play these sorts of games.

If you all go charging off to create your own empires, you probably won't get to see very much of each other. Saying 'you start here, and the world is your oyster' is very good for worldbuilding and single player games, but not necessarily beneficial when it comes to a viable multiplayer setting.

Equally, unless you've got a particularly devious game master who's willing to micromanage all of the NPC enemies, you're never going to get much of a wider strategic challenge out of them - just sets of isolated battles.

I could be totally wrong, but as an onlooker, those would be my concerns.

[Ace_General]

I think my main worry with this is that you'd effectively have a small nexus of players in Russia/Ukraine, which are then steadily expanding away from each other, into neighbouring NPC kingdoms. From my outsider's perspective, one of the reasons the current GoT version has simmered down is because it's focused almost solely on beating up NPCs so far. Player interaction is really the reason why I'd play these sorts of games.

If you all go charging off to create your own empires, you probably won't get to see very much of each other. Saying 'you start here, and the world is your oyster' is very good for worldbuilding and single player games, but not necessarily beneficial when it comes to a viable multiplayer setting.

Equally, unless you've got a particularly devious game master who's willing to micromanage all of the NPC enemies, you're never going to get much of a wider strategic challenge out of them - just sets of isolated battles.

I could be totally wrong, but as an onlooker, those would be my concerns.

Well, the other thing Im going to do is very actively control the NPC kingdoms and have all kinds of events, and actual invasions where we actually have a fair shot at losing on a local scale(though given the vastness of Russia and the abilty to call up reserves and sign off some land, being completely defeated is unlikely short of the mongols). And Im going to create a system where, depending on your foe, its not going to be a pushover to invade them, then also, you will need to have fairly large garrisons to pacifiy them(though settled slavs will be easier to occupy, while as a general rule, the further away the culture from the Rus, and the less settled the greater the chance of revolts and need for Garrisons). For example, if only one prince tries to march into eastern Poland, the Poles are going to levy their armies and have a good shot and giving the invader a bloody nose, but the ethnically Ruthanian border lands wouldnt be very hard to occupy, while you woudl need larger garrisons to occupy the core of poland. And for another example, say you go conquer some Balts or slavs, to scatter their forces in battle wouldnt be too difficult, but their lands wouldnt give you very much income, and you would need to establish fairly large garrisons and have for a few turns a large but decreasing chance of revolts

Also, if another prince gets too strong, its perfectly ok for the other princes to gang up on them, or for anyone whos related to the ruling Rukid dynasty to try to take the throne of the whole kingdom

This game is going to be almost as much a strategic war game as it is to be about political Intrigue and RP.

[Jokern]

I'm interested in this. I'd love to play as a mercenary captain, Vadim Voinovich, who travels around the Russian plains with his merry bunch of soldiers, looking for the next baron to fight for.

[Ace_General]

Figured as much. Alright. So do we have to be historical with stuff, or can we do whatever we want? Invasion of Finland for the lulz...

Thats perfectly ok to invade finland, though it is going to be a bit dicey pacifying and occupying the natives at first. History is to be an inspiration, and but a guide instead

Looks cool I'd play

Coolio, as Grand Prince Vladimir of the Kievan Rus, I hereby offer you, cousin, the Princedom of Vladimir, if you should choose to accept

[Zectorman]

Im interested in Polotsk, i'd like to pacify the tribes and rival Novgorod for naval control of the Baltic sea XD ...in the long run. Then crown myself Grand Prince of Lithuania and split from Rus XD

[Ace_General]

Im interested in Polotsk, i'd like to pacify the tribes and rival Novgorod for naval control of the Baltic sea XD ...in the long run. Then crown myself Grand Prince of Lithuania and split from Rus XD

Then, Cousin(for ingame purposes) I name you Kynaz of Polotsk. Though spliting off from the Kingdom of the Rus is one of the few that will cause the Grand prince to wreck your

[Winsleydale]

I can has for to be 'Murican? Perhaps just keep to my own continent and wait patiently for some of you to find me and promptly give me smallpox...

[Agamemnon]

Totally.

[Jokern]

What kind of military existed in Russia during this era? It won't be like western Europe I suspect, so what can we look forward to? Was there a warrior/knight class that rode, while infantry was mainly made up of serfs, levies and foreign mercs (like vikings)? With all the nomad people in Russia, there has to be many steppe clans armed with bows.

[Ace_General]

What kind of military existed in Russia during this era? It won't be like western Europe I suspect, so what can we look forward to? Was there a warrior/knight class that rode, while infantry was mainly made up of serfs, levies and foreign mercs (like vikings)? With all the nomad people in Russia, there has to be many steppe clans armed with bows.

TLR Version: Mix of Scandinavian style and feudal organization along with tribal levies.

Well, every community sorta worked out military service with their princes because the structure of the Rus Kingdom was really decentralized. Though generally, the cities had levies of decently equipped milita infantrymen and bowmen, while say Baltic, and Finno-Uralic tribes gave levies, and their were some nomads that owed tribute to the Rus Princes, but generally they pretty much did their own thing.

The big problem about generalizing the Kievan Rus armies is depending on which Geographical area the army was raised in and where they are fighting the composition can vary wildly. For example, a army raised in Northern Russia to fight in the baltic would consist of the Princes Druzhina(analogous to the Huskrals of Germanic military tradition), Urban Semi Professional militia troops, a large number of norse mercenaries, some feudal type levies, and tribal levies of Finnish type people, and calvary would be purposely neglected asit is not as effective in the Baltic forrests and swamps

While on the other hand, fighting in say Hungary or the Balkans, the ethnic Rus(refering to both the resident norse and Slavs) themselves would fight largely as heavy and medium infantry, while they would recruit large numbers of nomads and semi nomadic people as mercenaries, allies, and auxiliaries. And while the Rus were fighting the steppe nomads again, they would again fight primarily as infantry with town and feudal levies and norse mercenaries and use the rivers to cancel the nomads advantages in mobility and supply their forces, and also engage in seige warfare to take out the trade centers, then build fortified postions to control the land and then move military settlers in

On the question of weather there was a military class like knights, well sort of. First off, you had the Druzhina, which were again like Huskrals and could be concidered a military class, and sometimes fought on horseback, but that was dependent on the terrain, tactical situation the skills of the local people, and the availability of Horses. Also, while it helped to come from a good family, there was no birthright to being in the Druzhina, nor, provided you were a good fighter and loyal to the prince, low birth wasnt a serious handicap.

There was also a slavic aristocracy, but they never really rose above the equivlent rank of baron compared to the west, and they all were directly loyal to the prince. Unlike in western europe, there wasnt a strong feudal system where you had hereditary Dukes and Counts who served as intermediaries between the king and the barons and knights. Instead, you had what in my reading on Russian poltical history a hub and spoke system, where the only substanital relationship in elites is to the Ruler and the elite, weather it be the grand Princes of the Keivan Rus, the Tsars, the Soviets, or the President of modern Russia.

Their is also another group that westerners like to compare to knights,the Boyars, but again, (there is overlap with the slavic aristocracy), above the lands and ranks equvilent to Baron for the wealtheir ones, and for the entire middle and lower orders of Boyars, they were a Service Aristrocracy and served and the pleasure of the prince or grand prince. Sure you family might have some land and you might be wealth, but your social standing and political power was based on your service to the state, and the princes favor of you

Interesting article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorni_Klobuky

And essentially, while a full feudal system would be very alien and rather ineffective in Russia at the time, if your a Prince and you can dream up a army that is plausible, you can feild it. For example, there is reports form chronicles of Armenian and Persian mercanries fighting for Rus Princes in Invasions of Poland and teh Grand Duke of Kiev had steppe tribes swear fealty to him after defeating them in battle. Really, like most pre modern princes, as long as you werent a crusader or fanatical muslim and you paid your service to the state they didnt care who you were