CAC v.0.6 Gameplay feedback and mod discussion

[Iutland]

Please post your feedback after playing CAC and share your ideas for a continuos improvement of this mod

Please try to be specific on the subject if your feedback is targeting the mod development or design!

[Black9]

I guess I'll start it off then. Warning: I'm on mobile so forgive any typos or grammatical mistakes. I'll edit it later.

Very positive experience so far. I've tested Rome, Carthage, Suebi, and Seleucid for 50-100 turns each, and Galatia for ~25, just to get a feel for each.

Starting positions: fantastic. Not much else to say here. Will you be changing the Seleucid start at all? They were the largest power in the time period but without their satrapies they have a measly 6 regions.

Tech: great. I love that upkeep/corruption goes up as you tech further. It offers tradeoffs which are fun, realism (more expensive but stronger armies, more corrupt government), and might help with the late game problem of having more money than God. I also like that the reforms are worked in, because the AI will retrain units but not disband. Plus I love retraining. It feels like my empire took a step forward. Also gives a reason to tech further down the training field line which I feel is weak in vanilla.

Rosters: amazing. Realistic, not overwhelmingly large, still leave the factions with an identity. Too many mods give a too-broad spectrum of units and I feel that it homogenizes the rosters so they all feel the same, but just wearing different colors.

Battles: very good. Units might fight a tad too long before routing, but I'm not sure. It's good where it is but if it's tweaked I won't mind. This is personal opinion, anyway.

I'm curious, were pre-charge javelins so common in the ancient world, I know thureophoroi and Romans did it, but did Germanic club levies? I think it would be a fun feature to have the barbarians, other than in Iberia, still throw only on the charge and not have fire at will. It would add flavor, I think, and fit their theme. Maybe only give them 1 javelin instead of 2. Thureophoroi were hybrid skirmishers/infantry, so they should have 3, in my opinion. Again, to provide distinction.

I only tried with Parthia but their skirmisher cavalry will skirmish before they throw javelins. The range could be increase a tad on those. I don't even like the unit but it seems odd haha.

Colors: mostly good. I know the Seleucids aren't done yet, but orange? Come on!

Pacing: feels great. I really felt that, as Rome, it was much harder in the beginning than in vanilla since hastati aren't space marines. It actually felt like I worked early in the campaign to establish myself, then I could start looking toward new conquests. Carthage was similar: consolidate my position, then look to expand. Great stuff.

What I look forward to: 1. (Long term) Cimmerian and Seleucid rosters since those are two of my favorite cultures. The hybrid Hellenic/native stuff is so cool. 2. (Short term hopefully?) A version with the new rosters made playable. Gutones for the East Germans, please. Prussian heritage.

For the forum: I very much like how RSII made a previews sub-forum with a thread for each faction. I think that would be a nice addition as I like to be able to preview the rosters without having to load up a custom battle.

TL;DR: Can't do it, just read the first lines of each paragraph.

[Iutland]

I guess I'll start it off then. Warning: I'm on mobile so forgive any typos or grammatical mistakes. I'll edit it later.

Very positive experience so far. I've tested Rome, Carthage, Suebi, and Seleucid for 50-100 turns each, and Galatia for ~25, just to get a feel for each.

Starting positions: fantastic. Not much else to say here. Will you be changing the Seleucid start at all? They were the largest power in the time period but without their satrapies they have a measly 6 regions.

Tech: great. I love that upkeep/corruption goes up as you tech further. It offers tradeoffs which are fun, realism (more expensive but stronger armies, more corrupt government), and might help with the late game problem of having more money than God. I also like that the reforms are worked in, because the AI will retrain units but not disband. Plus I love retraining. It feels like my empire took a step forward. Also gives a reason to tech further down the training field line which I feel is weak in vanilla.

Rosters: amazing. Realistic, not overwhelmingly large, still leave the factions with an identity. Too many mods give a too-broad spectrum of units and I feel that it homogenizes the rosters so they all feel the same, but just wearing different colors.

Battles: very good. Units might fight a tad too long before routing, but I'm not sure. It's good where it is but if it's tweaked I won't mind. This is personal opinion, anyway.

I'm curious, were pre-charge javelins so common in the ancient world, I know thureophoroi and Romans did it, but did Germanic club levies? I think it would be a fun feature to have the barbarians, other than in Iberia, still throw only on the charge and not have fire at will. It would add flavor, I think, and fit their theme. Maybe only give them 1 javelin instead of 2. Thureophoroi were hybrid skirmishers/infantry, so they should have 3, in my opinion. Again, to provide distinction.

I only tried with Parthia but their skirmisher cavalry will skirmish before they throw javelins. The range could be increase a tad on those. I don't even like the unit but it seems odd haha.

Colors: mostly good. I know the Seleucids aren't done yet, but orange? Come on!

Pacing: feels great. I really felt that, as Rome, it was much harder in the beginning than in vanilla since hastati aren't space marines. It actually felt like I worked early in the campaign to establish myself, then I could start looking toward new conquests. Carthage was similar: consolidate my position, then look to expand. Great stuff.

What I look forward to: 1. (Long term) Cimmerian and Seleucid rosters since those are two of my favorite cultures. The hybrid Hellenic/native stuff is so cool. 2. (Short term hopefully?) A version with the new rosters made playable. Gutones for the East Germans, please. Prussian heritage.

For the forum: I very much like how RSII made a previews sub-forum with a thread for each faction. I think that would be a nice addition as I like to be able to preview the rosters without having to load up a custom battle.

TL;DR: Can't do it, just read the first lines of each paragraph.

Thank you for your feedback Black9 it is very helpful.

I noted the issues in relation to javelins that needs two be discussed and adressed in our team. For the Gutones and Cimmerian they are already playable on my PC and we still needs to rework the latter roster before the beta release. As a teaser see the screenshots below (note that Cimmeria should probably be moved to Hellenic Faction-Group before release and updated pros and cons)

Cheers
iutland

[Black9]

Thank you for your feedback Black9 it is very helpful.

I noted the issues in relation to javelins that needs two be discussed and adressed in our team. For the Gutones and Cimmerian they are already playable on my PC and we still needs to rework the latter roster before the beta release. As a teaser see the screenshots below (note that Cimmeria should probably be moved to Hellenic Faction-Group before release and updated pros and cons)

Cheers
iutland

Oh come on man, don't tease me like that!

[Caracala]

Issues
(Im not sure if the following Campaign AI is due to the mod, if it isnt then please ignore the first point)
1) While playing as the Sweboz, the faction I was at war with (Bohehihemon?, formerly the Boii) left their settlement, Casurgis, completely undefended allowing me to almost walk in and take over. After taking the settlement both of their armies left the region despite the fact that their combined strength would have slaughtered me. After the retreat they spent the next several turns maxing out their army cap with armies made of 5-6 units each.

2) I was a bit surprised at the poor performance that the Western German Clubmen gave when faced against the Western Framea Warriors. Even when being outflanked, the Framea Warriors always managed to slaughter the Clubmen. This came off as strange given because of how similar their stats were.
[In a few test battles] 2-Clubmen(about 50 kills each) versus 1-Framea Warrior(about 200 kills)

3) The range of Mercenary Longbow Hunters seems to significantly outclass the range of Germanic Hunters even though they both have the same weapon type. Their damage also seems extremely out of whack, as they managed to get nearly 500 kills (seems pretty high to me)

4) Some of the loading screen images look stretched along the x-axis.


Other
-There is outstanding variety across all of Europe now thanks to the attention given to every individual peoples. This is a much needed break from Rome2's monotony of fighting the same Celtic and Germanic roster over and over again across Europe.

-Something that I appreciate greatly is fact the names you gave to units. There are many "historical" mods that end up giving greek or latin names for non Greek and Roman units (ex. Calling Iranian or Dacian archers "Toxotai." While it is technically a correct name, they still arent greek speakers!)
So far you havent done this and I hope you continue to not do so.


Keep up the outstanding work Iutland and il Pitta,this is easily one of the most outstanding mods for Rome2 and I cant wait to see more factions come together.

[Iutland]

Issues
(Im not sure if the following Campaign AI is due to the mod, if it isnt then please ignore the first point)
1) While playing as the Sweboz, the faction I was at war with (Bohehihemon?, formerly the Boii) left their settlement, Casurgis, completely undefended allowing me to almost walk in and take over. After taking the settlement both of their armies left the region despite the fact that their combined strength would have slaughtered me. After the retreat they spent the next several turns maxing out their army cap with armies made of 5-6 units each.

2) I was a bit surprised at the poor performance that the Western German Clubmen gave when faced against the Western Framea Warriors. Even when being outflanked, the Framea Warriors always managed to slaughter the Clubmen. This came off as strange given because of how similar their stats were.
[In a few test battles] 2-Clubmen(about 50 kills each) versus 1-Framea Warrior(about 200 kills)

3) The range of Mercenary Longbow Hunters seems to significantly outclass the range of Germanic Hunters even though they both have the same weapon type. Their damage also seems extremely out of whack, as they managed to get nearly 500 kills (seems pretty high to me)

4) Some of the loading screen images look stretched along the x-axis.


Other
-There is outstanding variety across all of Europe now thanks to the attention given to every individual peoples. This is a much needed break from Rome2's monotony of fighting the same Celtic and Germanic roster over and over again across Europe.

-Something that I appreciate greatly is fact the names you gave to units. There are many "historical" mods that end up giving greek or latin names for non Greek and Roman units (ex. Calling Iranian or Dacian archers "Toxotai." While it is technically a correct name, they still arent greek speakers!)
So far you havent done this and I hope you continue to not do so.


Keep up the outstanding work Iutland and il Pitta,this is easily one of the most outstanding mods for Rome2 and I cant wait to see more factions come together.

Thank you for your detailed feedback Caracala and the issues you describe are something that should be looked at in the mod parameters. 1) is something that is tweaked in the Campaign AI file and may be the result of that. I experienced something similar playing Arverni but instead the AI besieged me after I had finally taken the enemy city and they almost destroyed my forces in the act. Please keep me posted on that issue to learn more?

Your other points regarding variety and unit names are entirely thanks to il Pitta. We actually decided from the outset, not to devise fancy names without a firm basis to build it upon. That is why the names will not look like the ones in Europa Barbarorum, although we have the deepest respect for the reputation of that mod.

Cheers
iutland

[Caracala]

I love Europa Barborum as well, and it brought life to my RomeI experience.... I just ended up changing the names of units in it so I could play it without getting frustrated with the names :p
_________________________




Just a few more notes (Played much more of the Sweboz and started a Qart Hadast and Arverni campaign)



-Why do the Western Germanic Warband units have a recruitment time of two turns yet have 120 men in a group? Recruiting Harjoz just seems like a much better choice despite the slightly increased price.

-Javelin armed cavalry(like most light cavalry) throw their javelins waaay too early (thrown about 8 meters too early). I think this is a result of the reworked range for javelins.

-Having Skirmish mode activated for any javelin-skirmisher unit causes problems. Their new reduced range is within the range that the skirmish ability starts. This means they cant throw their projectiles because they run away before they are in range.

-I would recommend giving more uses to some of the Germanic buildings. With the reworked roster, some of the buildings have little use. Qart-Hadast, Arverni, and Rome do not have this problem though.

-In the future, fix the income that those three African nations have. One desert village has more than 1000 income while Roma and Qart Hadast only have 300

-Im not sure what caused this, but I noticed that the Iberian culture was present in Illyria (There werent any Iberians in the area though). Oh, and congratulations on managing to add more cultures! I have tried in the past but have never managed to give the new culture to a faction (good luck there)

-A personal request: Give the Daoi city of Malva the resource of Gold instead of the current Grain. (The gold mines were arguably the main reason Trajan took the region)



Im still loving the mod so far, it really makes this feel like a completely new game. I cant wait to see the Daoi and some Eastern and Steppe factions come to life in the future.

Keep up the excellent work!

[jojo74]

Hello

I have just played one campaign with Rome, so maybe not a lot to give you a strong feedback, but I have tested other mod (DEI/Magnar/TOON'S), and in all this mod, I have see some really good thng, and other I really dislike. I think if you can take some of their idea this mod can be really great.
First for the battle, I really like it, the can be long, the ennemy try to flank you, but just with the mounted unit, anyway he tries many charge but only on the extreme side of my army.
The javelins units particulary velites seems to have really little javelin thing that make them not really usefull compared to a hastati unit (better in close fight and can throw some javelin too).
The idea of different boat size is PERFECT, a navy can be now really dangerous against a city, and is not just an "reinforcement unit".
I like the change for bonus malus given by building and technology, the system of reform (strong job!!) the changements for the units...
Things I prefer for other mod:
Number of turn per year, i understand that with 4 turn per year, you can wait a long time before arrive "Jesus birth" and then reform will arrive not in the historical date, but it is really nice to increase general ability to a greater rank.
I like the season effect on army and cities, it give the game a new strategic aspect (winter for example in Magnar is really not, in the cold region, the season to start a war or battle; even I find the decrease in army movement sometimes really exaggerate).
I find the AI to shy, trade accord wasn't easy to obtain, but war, it was not challenging, and a lot of faction played by the computer stay in peace, it was not Jesus world, but they seems more interested by their economy instead of war. To compare, I played the same campaign with DEI, and it was really hard, I made the mistake of not making alliance, and was at a time to the point of loose the game, even if I find the AI too agressive at the start (no friends, in war against 13 factions...) a more reasonnable aggressiveness will make the diplomacy part more important.
Maybe it was tto early in the game, but the army ennemy was composed of medium or poor units for the majority, and my principes with their strong experience kill them really easy, I know I can't increase the battle difficulty, but dislike to give supermoral bonus to really poor units, maybe decrease the time to gain experience will be a good thing.
For the barbarian faction, Iliked the increase in units size saw in DEI, maybe it is not historic.

I am not here to compare mod, even if I do it, I liked some espects of them, and dislike other.
THe major point is (it is for all mode and the game itself) when your factions owns more than 12 regions it is really imposible to loose or find and other faction strong to cause you fear, even "big faction " at the beginning of the game don't really grow to the point to become a strong adverser.

Your mod is at this time a "baby" but I think it can be a really giant!!

If you don't understand my english, please go back to school

[jojo74]

One thing I forgot and think is really great is the time to burn a gate, It was horrible to see a gate burn in just couple of second, it make the siege more difficult and it was the first time I waited to build more ladder to not see half of my army killed by arrow, javelin and tower! Really good point, capture a city was so easy....

[Ambigatos]

I just recently discovered this and am very excited. Looks good! Please consider portraying the Boii as a more authentic ambush faction. I think at least one melee infantry and one spear infantry with guerilla deployment would suffice IMO. This would represent their long tradition of ambush tactics.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ling-the-Score


-Mutina (218 BC) Boii ambush. 800 Roman soldiers and six standards lost.

-Trasimene (217 BC) Hannibal's Gauls play the central role in one of the most succesfull ambushes in military history

-Litana Forest (216 BC) Boii ambush. 25,000 Roman soldiers slain, along with their commander Lucius Postumius Albinus

-Mutilum (201 BC) Boii ambush. 7,000 Roman soldiers slain, along with Legate Caius Oppius.

-Near Cuomo (196 BC) Boii ambush. Chieftain Corolamus ambushes Claudius Marcellus and kills 3,000 of his men.

-Mutina (193 BC) Boii ambush. A Cohort of veterans is slaughtered.

[bobbyr]

Hi everybody,

I've followed this mod more or less since it's been included in the 'Hosted Modifications' section.
What I've seen and read so far looks very promising to me and I'm hopeful that this mod might become 'the real successor of the original Europa Barbarorum'.

I appreciate the work the developers have put into Divide et Impera, but to me it's more like a better looking and more diverse version of Roma Surrectum - with less depth.

I don't want to turn this thread into a CAC vs DeI debate, but my question (and I'm really curious to know this) is:

How does CAC compare to DeI?

Especially in the long run, when both mods are at version 1.0 etc.

I've played DeI plenty and it's the best Rome II mod I've played so far. I must admit, I haven't tried CAC so far, I think it would be unfair to compare them myself as Dei is at 0.82d and CAC only at 0.5

My main questions regarding v 1.0 are:

- Will historic accuracy be of very high priority in CAC?
- Will battles be longer and more tactical than in DeI?
- Will the Campaign AI and especially the surviving of nations be better than in DeI? (I think it's by far the weakest point of DeI)

Thank You guys

[il Pitta]

Hi Bobbyr, and thank you for your feedback

- Will historic accuracy be of very high priority in CAC?

Absolutely yes, and not only in the unit appearence: we are trying to be as historically accurate as possible in the faction names, starting positions, political assets, diplomacy and developement, even with the add of some scripts that would give more depth to the game (e.d. the Sertorian rebellion in Spain, with a possible development for Lusitani faction)

- Will battles be longer and more tactical than in DeI?

I've never played DeI, so I can only provide you a partial response... moreover, I would like not to compare MODS one with another - any MOD is a unique thing.
However, speaking of CAC battles can be quite long (obviously it depends on the fielded numbers) and tactical... speaking as a tester, I can only say that Iutland is doing a fine job, and just yesterday for example i fought a 40+ min battle abainst a huge army attacking one of my settlements, that deployed in quite a cunning way, trying by all means to avoid flanking, harassing me with ranged troops and actually forcing me on a frontal assault on his right wing to try an outflank...

- Will the Campaign AI and especially the surviving of nations be better than in DeI? (I think it's by far the weakest point of DeI)

Again I can't/don't want to compare, and again I can say Iutland is shaping AI quite well... diplomacy now is quite important and have a sense... your allies behaved in quite a sentient way (but the allies of your enemies too..).
As an example, playing with Carthage I manage to push Cisalpine Gauls to attack Rome, to gain some time while strenghtening my position in Spain and Africa... and recieved a surprise attack of Venetkens that with their fleet navigates along Italy and landed in Sardinia!

About the surviving of nations actually what you mean? Obviously when you occupy a region, if you didn't give attention to the happiness, it will revolt as the former faction.

I hope I have gave you some hints... however about lot of things Iutland can explay better than me ;-)

[bobbyr]

Grazie il Pitta!

Very detailed and promising feedback. I think CAC might just be what I'm looking for

With 'surviving of nations' I meant that when I start a new campaign in Vanilla or even DeI, after 20-25 turns half of the minor nations are gone, because their settlement has been conquered. It can be quite frustrating when as Rome all your minor allies such as Massilia, Syracuse, Numidia etc are gone before the First Punic War even started....

[Black9]

Grazie il Pitta!

Very detailed and promising feedback. I think CAC might just be what I'm looking for

With 'surviving of nations' I meant that when I start a new campaign in Vanilla or even DeI, after 20-25 turns half of the minor nations are gone, because their settlement has been conquered. It can be quite frustrating when as Rome all your minor allies such as Massilia, Syracuse, Numidia etc are gone before the First Punic War even started....

The thing about having lots of small factions survive is that in the late game the player will not have a challenge in the form of a large AI empire. So pick your poison.

Absolutely yes, and not only in the unit appearence: we are trying to be as historically accurate as possible in the faction names, starting positions, political assets, diplomacy and developement, even with the add of some scripts that would give more depth to the game (e.d. the Sertorian rebellion in Spain, with a possible development for Lusitani faction)

When you get those scripts working you can do all sorts of cool things: Make Baktria/Parthia/Cappadocia declare independence at the correct years, start the Punic Wars, trigger rebellions, great stuff!

[Iutland]

The thing about having lots of small factions survive is that in the late game the player will not have a challenge in the form of a large AI empire. So pick your poison.



When you get those scripts working you can do all sorts of cool things: Make Baktria/Parthia/Cappadocia declare independence at the correct years, start the Punic Wars, trigger rebellions, great stuff!

I agree that for gameplay purpose the player should have proper opposition in the later game and not just a number of small passive states to subdue

We haven't started scripting yet and it is later on our to-do list together with general beautyfication.

[Marcus Vitruvius]

I agree that for gameplay purpose the player should have proper opposition in the later game and not just a number of small passive states to subdue

We haven't started scripting yet and it is later on our to-do list together with general beautyfication.

Will the Greek city states be playable? I notice Sparta is in the custom battle selection,

[Iutland]

Will the Greek city states be playable? I notice Sparta is in the custom battle selection,

They will of course be playable but it requires that you purchase the Greek Cities DLC if you don't have it already.

We have just added 55 additional playable factions in the main campaign so there will be other Hellenistic factions to try than the current vanilla ones.

[kerrfox]

I don't much care for overhaul mods, preferring to cobble together mini-mods to most any overhaul mod. However La Montee de l'Empire is certainly the exception. DEI is good but I prefer the 18 mods I currently use to DEI. However I will keep a close eye on this mod; glad to see you working on one for Rome II.
Edit: Sorry I posted this here and now realize this is only for feedback. In any case I will certainly try this mod out as it sounds like "the" mod for Rome II.

[jlasit00]

I like your mod but here are the issues I've experienced thus far:
1) How do I recruit velites now? I have level a Manipular barracks and still only have leves.
2) Siege AI needs revision.
a) The torch value being lowered has caused the AI to stand in front of the gates and be shot to death
b) Mobs unit size was increased to 400 but plebs were left untouched.
3) Senatus Polpulus Que Romanus- Theres is a typo in the faction name it is currently (Senatus Populusque Romanus)

Mostly minor things. Your mod has redone my addiction to Rome 2.

[jlasit00]

I like your mod but here are the issues I've experienced thus far:
1) How do I recruit velites now? I have level a Manipular barracks and still only have leves.
2) Siege AI needs revision.
a) The torch value being lowered has caused the AI to stand in front of the gates and be shot to death
b) Mobs unit size was increased to 400 but plebs were left untouched.
3) Senatus Polpulus Que Romanus- Theres is a typo in the faction name it is currently (Senatus Populusque Romanus)

Mostly minor things. Your mod has redone my addiction to Rome 2.

Disregard Number 3 my mistake not yours.