Gundabad to Angmar

**Viva Espana!** · March 05, 2014, 09:45 PM

I don't know what development on this mod is like, but I recently got back into Third Age and something struck me.

LOTRO, while not part of the books or the movies, is endorsed by the Tolkiens (as far as I know). In LOTRO, Turbine took the interesting route of featuring the Rise of Angmar and the Witch King as a threat in the north, once more, as part of a plan to put pressure on Elrond, the Blue Mountain Dwarves, and the surviving Dunedain. It also served as a basis for searching for the Ring. While I love how the Gundabad Orcs are implemented in the game, there is little (beyond the Armored Goblin units) that sets them apart from the Orcs of the Misty Mountains in vanilla Third Age. A thought came to me that the Gundabad Orcs could go through a similar experience to Eriador/Arnor, or at least deserved a bit more fleshing out.

The basis of my inspiration, in addition to LOTRO, was the small selection of Rhudaur Men available to Gundabad. I wondered why no evil men serve as Generals in Gundabad armies -- after all, Carn Dum was their capital and Rhudaur Men can still be recruited in limited roles. It would be rather flavorful to see a contingent of mounted knights from the old Edain kingdom of Rhudaur fighting against their kin. Of course, they'd be limited by being generals, thus making sure the armies remained primarily Orcish.

I continued to think, and wondered if it might be possible to establish an evil kingdom of men in this manner. Perhaps make one branch of the Orcish family tree connect to the Hill Men/Rhudaur Men, allowing one of them to become Faction Leader. And, thus, establish a kingdom centered on Carn Dum, like the Eriador/Arnor event. Say the prerequisites are that an Evil Man must be leader of the faction, the towns of Arthedain must be conquered, and the Gundabad Orcs must have an alliance with Mordor. Then they must rebuild the ruined fortress of Carn Dum, and they can become the faction "Angmar", allowing them to recruit more Rhudaur units and gain elite units armored in the style of the Edain. Maybe they even get the Witch King as a general?

Just some thoughts.

**Flinn** · March 06, 2014, 01:39 AM

might be interesting for you to have a look here

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...rath-of-Angmar

**Dutch-Balrog** · March 06, 2014, 05:48 PM

Dac is your mod, their mid and late units are badass, check em out in custom battle first to see if you like em!

**Viva Espana!** · March 06, 2014, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Dutch-Balrog

Dac is your mod, their mid and late units are badass, check em out in custom battle first to see if you like em!

Not a big fan of Dunland and Enedwaith getting their own factions, or the distortion of the Misty Mountains/Eriador

**Dutch-Balrog** · March 08, 2014, 08:44 AM

Basicly ur not a fan of lore-accurate factions then lol.
Well then i suggest Flinn's link.

**Viva Espana!** · March 10, 2014, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Dutch-Balrog

Basicly ur not a fan of lore-accurate factions then lol.
Well then i suggest Flinn's link.

Just don't see the point of Dunland and Enedwaith when Dunland serves as auxiliaries for Saruman and Enedwaith had no contribution to the War of the Ring and DAC takes severe liberties with the faction by having them convene a Moot. This is not even mentioning the silliness of giving Khand its own faction when all information we have derives from a few throw-away lines by Tolkien and extrapolation by Games Workshop that "Variags = Varangians = Mongols with Axes." Furthermore, Dol Amroth should not be separate from Gondor, given that it was not an autonomous or independent principality but part of the many cities that made up Gondor like Pelargir and Lossanarch. In addition, the Eotheod no longer existed as a kingdom as the sons of Eorl had become the Rohirrim. What we do know of Wilderland and Rhovanion is that some Stoors migrated there (becoming Gollum's people) and the names of a few towns. While I appreciate the addition of Dorwinion, the sheer amount of lore-breaking extrapolation that takes place to make it unique (Avari or Edain Courts? Trade or Military? Vintner Court?)...

As for their take on the Remnants of Angmar, I don't like it. Not because I think it's inaccurate, but because I think it's limited. No Wights that the Witch King was able to send down to Cardolan. Their cavalry is made available from the start, so I understand why it's weak. But I don't get all of the stag-helmets -- why? Why the antlers? Why not make Angmar a perverse reversal of the Edain of old, revived by servants of the Witch King, if you're going to include knights?

**Ethelros** · March 10, 2014, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Viva Espana!

Just don't see the point of Dunland and Enedwaith when Dunland serves as auxiliaries for Saruman and Enedwaith had no contribution to the War of the Ring and DAC takes severe liberties with the faction by having them convene a Moot. This is not even mentioning the silliness of giving Khand its own faction when all information we have derives from a few throw-away lines by Tolkien and extrapolation by Games Workshop that "Variags = Varangians = Mongols with Axes." Furthermore, Dol Amroth should not be separate from Gondor, given that it was not an autonomous or independent principality but part of the many cities that made up Gondor like Pelargir and Lossanarch. In addition, the Eotheod no longer existed as a kingdom as the sons of Eorl had become the Rohirrim. What we do know of Wilderland and Rhovanion is that some Stoors migrated there (becoming Gollum's people) and the names of a few towns. While I appreciate the addition of Dorwinion, the sheer amount of lore-breaking extrapolation that takes place to make it unique (Avari or Edain Courts? Trade or Military? Vintner Court?)...

As for their take on the Remnants of Angmar, I don't like it. Not because I think it's inaccurate, but because I think it's limited. No Wights that the Witch King was able to send down to Cardolan. Their cavalry is made available from the start, so I understand why it's weak. But I don't get all of the stag-helmets -- why? Why the antlers? Why not make Angmar a perverse reversal of the Edain of old, revived by servants of the Witch King, if you're going to include knights?

Er, neither did Gundabad, and yet that one doesn't seem to bother you. Honestly you seem to be picking and choosing which lore breaks are appropriate and which aren't based off of nothing.

As for the Remnants of Angmar, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Their roster is pretty varied with 'better than OOMM' orcs as the backbone, Rhudaur units to reinforce(and for actually good archers and okay cav) and then some superb heavy infantry in the late game(I suggest checking out the Witch-realm units if you haven't already).

Can't say I noticed much emphasis on antlers either, so you may be thinking of an earlier version.

**Viva Espana!** · March 10, 2014, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ethelros

Er, neither did Gundabad, and yet that one doesn't seem to bother you. Honestly you seem to be picking and choosing which lore breaks are appropriate and which aren't based off of nothing.

As for the Remnants of Angmar, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Their roster is pretty varied with 'better than OOMM' orcs as the backbone, Rhudaur units to reinforce(and for actually good archers and okay cav) and then some superb heavy infantry in the late game(I suggest checking out the Witch-realm units if you haven't already).

Can't say I noticed much emphasis on antlers either, so you may be thinking of an earlier version.

The reason I don't take issue with Angmar/Gundabad is solely because of post-Tolkien, Tolkien-Family-Endorsed decisions by brands like the Battle for Middle Earth series, War in the North, and (most of all) Lord of the Rings Online by Turbine.

**Infidel144** · March 11, 2014, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Viva Espana!

The reason I don't take issue with Angmar/Gundabad is solely because of post-Tolkien, Tolkien-Family-Endorsed decisions by brands like the Battle for Middle Earth series, War in the North, and (most of all) Lord of the Rings Online by Turbine.

?
The Estate ('Tolkien family', ie Christopher Tolkien) never endorsed any video games. They are a function of the movie rights having been sold back in the 60's.

**Arachir Galudirithon** · March 10, 2014, 11:14 AM

I don't think there is much that will suit your needs I am afraid. The link Flinn provided is to the closest thing you described, a mod that resurrects Angmar much in the same way Arnor is created in vanilla. However it is not finished yet and it is from that mod that many of our Angmar units at DaC come.

The heavy orcs named 'Witch-realm X' and the antlered Rhudaur units all originate there.

No one really pays any attention to Angmar because, as you say, it is a large stretch of the lore to think they would reform into the power of old, given that Sauron doesn't really give a damn about Eriador any longer and the only threat they face during the war of the ring is Saruman's coup of the Shire haha.

**Viva Espana!** · March 10, 2014, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Arachir Galudirithon

I don't think there is much that will suit your needs I am afraid. The link Flinn provided is to the closest thing you described, a mod that resurrects Angmar much in the same way Arnor is created in vanilla. However it is not finished yet and it is from that mod that many of our Angmar units at DaC come.

The heavy orcs named 'Witch-realm X' and the antlered Rhudaur units all originate there.

No one really pays any attention to Angmar because, as you say, it is a large stretch of the lore to think they would reform into the power of old, given that Sauron doesn't really give a damn about Eriador any longer and the only threat they face during the war of the ring is Saruman's coup of the Shire haha.

More's the pity. Oh well. I do like Divide and Conquer and consider it a superb mod. I can look past most lore problems, but when Dutch Balrog accused me of not wanting lore-accurate mods, I had to point out the problems with such a statement.

**Arachir Galudirithon** · March 11, 2014, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by Viva Espana!

More's the pity. Oh well. I do like Divide and Conquer and consider it a superb mod. I can look past most lore problems, but when Dutch Balrog accused me of not wanting lore-accurate mods, I had to point out the problems with such a statement.

I completely understand, I honestly do not mind if DaC isn't to your taste and even though I am a member of the DaC modding council I agree with some of your points, I just can't get the others to agree as well.

Hahaha. I would certainly remove Khand as a faction.

Once AdmiralThrawn's submod is completed that is the only mod that has really paid attention to Angmar though. Best of luck with your search!

**the lightning legion** · March 13, 2014, 12:24 AM

following the link and i must say I particularly like the troll chief but am concerned he might be OP even next to witch king

apart from that I think this mod looks fantastic and could be a great improvement to DaC or Mos as it would provide some much needed diversity these mods could only benefit from it

**Arachir Galudirithon** · March 13, 2014, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by the lightning legion

while we are pointing out problems with DaC I think having dol amroth separate financially cripples gondor early game

Before a moderator swoops in and tells you this, I may as well. Posts in this thread should at least attempt to be related to the title of the thread.

Please post in the DaC thread if you think there are issues with DaC.