AOR units and foreseen changes:

[dvk901]

I'm opening this thread in response to these messages\questions\concerns:

Hola - firstly I must note that I was a Tester & Questioner of the Mod and most of this was pre-designed before I ever got involved. That said I am more than happy to answer. Indeed I would go further and, unless you have any objection, you might want to start a thread on this sort of subject and use this message to start with - for everyone's interest and input; especially if dvk' is looking to tweak things!

...
I have questions about historic units and aor in RSII.
First: Do we have a map or other easily viewable material to see the different AsoR? aor and map are both too short to search for in the forums...

AOR Maps and similar are in the 'Important Stuff' folder. There have been some tweaks to this that aren't shown. Whilst it is relevant to the next question, I would note that I queried this quite a lot - for the AOR has been based upon where those units (particularly the legions) first served/came to notice; and isn't actually where they were recruited.

Second: How did we know what units are recruitable by Rome where? For example cretan archers are recruitable from Tarentum, Crotona, Rhegion. Do you know of cases where Cretan Archers were used in Polybian Times by Romans? What about Tarantine Cavalry, how come i can only get them as mercenaries and not recruit them from the city that gave them their name?

What the Team seem to have done is certainly use units that the Romans did use. I think it is people's love of archers that have resulted in where Cretans can be recruited, for they really should be part of a more limited Mercenary pool - just like the Tarantines. The latter were indeed a type and not restricted to Tarentum.

Third: Why are those non-roman, not-auxiliary units recruitable from baracks at all? Did The Romans really do this? I was under the impression that before The Marian Reforms Romans only used mercenaries as other military than Roman Citizens and Socii....

Again a valid point - I would again have much preferred a limited mercenary pool for all such troops. As a design element I would have expected only 'Regular' troops to be recruitable from barracks.


I will indeed CC this for dvk' - he might well be interested.


Regards

In answer to #1: As stated by my esteemed colleague, there is a fine map in the 'important_stuff' folder, however, it became a bit outdated due to some changes that were requested during our work on v2.6.

#2: By the time our mod starts, the term 'tarentine' in reference to cavalry no longer had any connection to the city that gave them their name. Yes, they first came from there, but the term was by our time applied as a 'tactic' or method of fighting, as in skirmishing cavalry, and had been for centuries. However, being able to actually recruit them in Italy like a regular unit was limited to effectively force the issue that the Romans had weak cavalry, and in a sense, had to go hunt for it and use mercenaries....which they did.

The Cretan archer was a bit different, as the Romans used them widely throughout the Republic and the Empire. I suppose this was a bit of a concession to those who wanted at least 'an' archer for the Romans during Republican times...there was at least good evidence that they were used widely.

#3: Non-regular units being recruitable from a barracks building was at first my idea...the idea was that if you conquered a region you could, in time, be able to recruit local units just like your own, and, be able to retrain them. However, I have to a admit that this caused all manner of problems with recruitment cues for all factions, and in my opinion, a decent 'idea in theory' doesn't play out as necessarily a good one in practice.

Having studied the M2TW method of recruitment, I realized for the first time that the mercenary cue in RTW works exactly like the regular recruitment in buildings in M2TW. It's too bad that this wasn't also done in RTW....it would've made recruitment a lot more flexible and controllable.

I am thinking of changing 'recruitment' in general for everyone, and making better use of the mercenary mechanism to help control the sometimes wild availability of units for both the player and the AI. I just haven't had the time yet to sit down and figure out how exactly to do that. I have started, however, to exit the 'investigative' stage and am actively working on RS2.7 now.

Suggestions and ideas are welcome as always.

[sadlogic]

Awesome, dvk!

In regards to #1, i have found 3 maps about legions and one (AOR_Regions_map) with several Areas divided into Rs (which i assume mean regions), i guess this map too is about Legions.
But of the actual exact AoR i found no map. For example Cretan Archers are recruitable from Rhegion (R7), Tarentum (R5) and Crotona (R6) but not from Capua (R4).
I guess there just is no such map i am looking for, which is fine. I won't make an effort of going through the desc_strat (was it?) to fish for AoR tags unless there is bigger interest in it.

If you need any help with 2.7 i would be happy give you a hand again!

[Alavaria]

Having studied the M2TW method of recruitment, I realized for the first time that the mercenary cue in RTW works exactly like the regular recruitment in buildings in M2TW.

In fact, I think you can retrain merc units, drawing on the merc pool to refill your unit in M2TW. Still expensive, of course.


It's a little funny that while I can train factional pike units and hoplites everywhere, I can only levy pikemen in specific places (generally, Greece, Macedonia and places to the east). Despite the amusing fact that building the merc&levy building requires a barracks level that already lets me train medium pikes.

#3: Non-regular units being recruitable from a barracks building was at first my idea...the idea was that if you conquered a region you could, in time, be able to recruit local units just like your own, and, be able to retrain them. However, I have to a admit that this caused all manner of problems with recruitment cues for all factions, and in my opinion, a decent 'idea in theory' doesn't play out as necessarily a good one in practice.

I happen to remember taking a village in Italy with Hannibal and then using it to churn out thousands of Celtic Light Swordsmen from the first-tier barracks.

Thank goodness that isn't possible anymore (I think)


Perhaps multiple levels of the merc "building" would work, and it requires levels of barracks to advance.

Currently, it's Barracks 1 -> Barracks 2 -> Barracks 3 -> Merc

If instead it was Barracks 1 -> Barracks 2 -> Merc 1 (levied local units)
And then Barracks 3 +Merc 1 -> Merc 2 (standard local units)
Barracks 3 +Merc 2 -> Merc 3 (the better local units)

Potentially unlocking some of the better troops at merc 4...

It's a bit funny to see that mercenary recruitment (in field, not in settlement) includes Athenian Epiktoi and Sycracusean Royal Hoplites.

[dvk901]

Awesome, dvk!

In regards to #1, i have found 3 maps about legions and one (AOR_Regions_map) with several Areas divided into Rs (which i assume mean regions), i guess this map too is about Legions.
But of the actual exact AoR i found no map. For example Cretan Archers are recruitable from Rhegion (R7), Tarentum (R5) and Crotona (R6) but not from Capua (R4).
I guess there just is no such map i am looking for, which is fine. I won't make an effort of going through the desc_strat (was it?) to fish for AoR tags unless there is bigger interest in it.

If you need any help with 2.7 i would be happy give you a hand again!

The only AOR maps ever made were for the Roman Legions, all other units would just 'show up' if you could recruit them.

In fact, I think you can retrain merc units, drawing on the merc pool to refill your unit in M2TW. Still expensive, of course.


It's a little funny that while I can train factional pike units and hoplites everywhere, I can only levy pikemen in specific places (generally, Greece, Macedonia and places to the east). Despite the amusing fact that building the merc&levy building requires a barracks level that already lets me train medium pikes.


I happen to remember taking a village in Italy with Hannibal and then using it to churn out thousands of Celtic Light Swordsmen from the first-tier barracks.

Thank goodness that isn't possible anymore (I think)


Perhaps multiple levels of the merc "building" would work, and it requires levels of barracks to advance.

Currently, it's Barracks 1 -> Barracks 2 -> Barracks 3 -> Merc

If instead it was Barracks 1 -> Barracks 2 -> Merc 1 (levied local units)
And then Barracks 3 +Merc 1 -> Merc 2 (standard local units)
Barracks 3 +Merc 2 -> Merc 3 (the better local units)

Potentially unlocking some of the better troops at merc 4...

It's a bit funny to see that mercenary recruitment (in field, not in settlement) includes Athenian Epiktoi and Sycracusean Royal Hoplites.

I know there are 'disparities' in the recruitment, which is why I want to eventually fix it...or better, alter it so it makes a little more sense. What you do based on what seems like a good idea sometimes doesn't turn out to be one. The mercenary building will probably just go away, because there really aren't that many different 'level' units to make it worth having multiple levels.

The other problem is that often the merc building offers a better unit than you can even recruit in your own barracks...at least for a couple levels...so it makes it too easy to snowball.

[Alavaria]

Was it intended that elites that Athenian Epiktoi Hoplites and Syracusean Royal Hoplites are hired like mercs in the region of Athenai/Syracuse?

[dvk901]

You don't really snowball with them, at least directly, because it takes a level 3 barracks (2+2+3 = 8 turns to build) and another 3 for the merc building.

Now, when the AI has built it and you take over, yeah it can be somewhat interesting ...

Yes, that is an aspect I don't like.

Was it intended that elites that Athenian Epiktoi Hoplites and Syracusean Royal Hoplites are hired like mercs in the region of Athenai/Syracuse?

As far as I know, it is the Syracuse Hoplite, not the Royal hoplite that is in the merc cue. The Athenian...well, TBH, when I was setting this up I may not have yet even known what a 'Epiktoi' hoplite was! lol Seriously, it took a lot of study and investigation for me to know what a lot of these units even WERE, because the names our Greek historians gave them meant nothing to me. People just threw gobs of units at me, and said: "Here, put these in the game".

So yeah, that's a bit odd. However, it was always the intention that if a unit was owned and had a texture for all factions, it was to be an 'all faction' unit. I didn't necessarily agree with that....for instance, I play the Romans, and recruiting a hoplite would be...well, blasphemy. I just don't use mercs that much unless I am forced to. But there were others on the team who insisted that being able to recruit all these units as mercs was a cool idea, and I suppose it is in some respects. It was a way to 'show them all off', in a sense.

Still, that whole merc building and merc cue will have to undergo some refinement\change.

[Alavaria]

As far as I know, it is the Syracuse Hoplite, not the Royal hoplite that is in the merc cue.

Yep. That one is fine.

I'm sure Epiktoi hoplites are very epic... (I shot them in the back when taking Athens so who knows...)

for instance, I play the Romans, and recruiting a hoplite would be...well, blasphemy.

The Romans could have made great use of pikemen. They probably never saw the need, especially after some people started just throwing pikes at everything and losing, but with their heavy infantry on the flanks, pikes would probably roll over the enemy as or more easily than legions, with less cost and losses.

Then again, in RS2, the pikes are very very resistant to any missile attack (unlike non-phalanx units) but are just terrible at killing anything that isn't a router. And they lose to heavy horse as well, rather ridiculous.

Hmm, this raises an interesting question of whether or not Rome can get access to cheap pikes anywhere...


Aha, you can get Levy Pikemen and Greek Slingers from client states (1+2 turns) in areas to the east, like the one settlement next to Macedonia you start off with. Provided you haven't Marian-ed, one could make an army without any of the cohort units. Interesting... access nearly instantly to all you need: Pikes, top slingers, you have some fodder to hold the flanks (Romans I guess). Hmmm. Roman generals are of course excellent heavy horse units, so that takes care of chasing routers.

This will be very interesting. Especially since the standard roman troops are so expensive for just a unit of 200. Well, actually no because it'll turn out like my Sparta campaign, except there's no need to slog through Italy fending off Roman revenge stacks (since you'd start off there). Barring the magical scripted rebellions.

[Alavaria]

You don't really snowball with them, at least directly, because it takes a level 3 barracks (2+2+3 = 8 turns to build) and another 3 for the merc building.

Now, when the AI has built it and you take over, yeah it can be somewhat interesting ...

[century x]

You the man dvk...

[Dramatic Cat]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dvk901 again."

... lol?


This incredibly awesome news. This mod is THE masterpiece of modding for RTW.