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Thread: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

  1. #1681

    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Uh? They announced a referendum 3 days ago.
    And was there any real threat to Crimean regions? I don't recall so. Such requiest for militarily was pre-empitive at the least.

  2. #1682

    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Quote Originally Posted by KieKeBooN View Post
    Democraticly elected government. The democratic aspect of a fair election has been questioned, and the last few months of protesting clearly showed that the democratic support of the government has 'waned' somewhat. In any real democratic country facing protests that size the government would've stepped down, but not here. Your democracy argument is invalid.
    Suure, look at Greece, they definitely stepped down after guerrilla erupted in the streets. Not.


    Quote Originally Posted by KieKeBooN View Post
    Going along with your Democracy argument, the right move for Crimea would be to wait to the mess to clear up and then move for independence in a more stable situation. .
    To have what? A nationalist/pro West government deny it until riots erupted in Crimea, so that Crimean people would ask for a Russian intervention? And when that happened you'd scream against the ''Russian aggressior regardless''?
    Save it. Save me the time and let's not waste more people's lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by KieKeBooN View Post
    At any rate, even if you're welcomed you have no right to park your armies in foreign territory especially without any formal warning. And there were also people welcoming American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq...
    Except that the locals in Afghanistan and Iraq also fought back the American troops. Who's fighting the Russians in Crimea? Noone.

  3. #1683
    Slydessertfox's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Kiev in flames.Police moves to clear up protesters

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    Golden Dawn should be legitimately considered a terrorist organisation, because they have been accused of, let alone convicted for, 0 (zero) terrorist attacks.
    They have a history of organized violence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_...ng_Golden_Dawn

    International diplomacy does not revolve about "rights" and "wrongs", but might. Still haven't realised that?
    Not that it matters anyway, since you are not anchoring your argument on diplomacy, you are making an argument on justice. And unjust treatment, when applied to all, is more just than selective justice.
    I'm anchoring my argument on geopolitics. It would patently retarded to allow Russia to get away with invading the rest of Ukraine.

    Good thing they haven't invaded the rest of Ukraine then.
    If you've read anything I said, this is all about preventing them from invading the rest of Ukraine, which they seem poised to do.


    But a solid argument on why the Russians have a much more solid historical right to Crimea. By right of conquest did the Tatars settle and by right of conquest they were evicted. Not to mention that they have been allowed to return since the fall of the Soviet Union and they constitute a minority today.
    That's like saying the Greeks have a historical right to Anatolia and the right to forcibly deport all Turks from Anatolia, because the Turks conquered Anatolia from a Greek state.

    But he didn't restrict himself to Danzig, he waged war on the whole of Poland. So, unless Putin invades the whole of Ukraine, bad analogy.
    The whole analogy was about if Putin invaded the rest of Ukraine. If Putin wants to restrict himself to just the Crimea that's all fine and dandy but he seems to be preparing to invade the whole of Ukraine.




    That shows the number of seats German and German-Hungarian parties gained in the Chamber of Deputies, not districts with majority German population.

    The ethnographic census, which counts actual people, not MPs, and classifies them on the basis of ethnicity, proves that the Germans constituted a minority in all districts of Czechoslovakia: Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia, Slovakia and Ruthenia.
    In the Sudetenland, as my first map showed, the majority were German speakers. Here's what Hitler demanded:


    Here's the linguistic make up of Czechoslovakia at that time:


  4. #1684
    Imperial's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Uh? They announced a referendum 3 days ago.
    Oh, so right when Russia was going to invade. Well, that's convenient

  5. #1685
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Kiev in flames.Police moves to clear up protesters

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    And? Why do you care? That's the Russians' problem. Assuming they do see it as problem.
    What the hell are you talking about? You really want to empower a man like Putin?

  6. #1686

    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    To have what? A nationalist/pro West government deny it until riots erupted in Crimea, so that Crimean people would ask for a Russian intervention? And when that happened you'd scream against the ''Russian aggressior regardless''?
    Save it. Save me the time and let's not waste more people's lives.
    It terms of legitimations it would've been a far better option, and I would certainly tone down my rethoric against the Russians should the Crimeans call for Russian protection, this time it just happened far too soon. Plus the willingness of the new Ukrainian government to allow Crimea to secede would need reevaluation before making such claims, though granted in most cases governments don't favour seperatism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Except that the locals in Afghanistan and Iraq also fought back the American troops. Who's fighting the Russians in Crimea? Noone.
    Yet anyway, let's hope it stays that way, or we may really end up in a war.

  7. #1687

    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Quote Originally Posted by KieKeBooN View Post
    Democraticly elected government. The democratic aspect of a fair election has been questioned, and the last few months of protesting clearly showed that the democratic support of the government has 'waned' somewhat. In any real democratic country facing protests that size the government would've stepped down, but not here. Your democracy argument is invalid.
    Like when the Greek, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian governments stepped down when they faced massive anti-austerity demonstrations or the British government when the students took to the streets?
    His argument is very much valid, because elections are prescribed by a country's consitution, they are not delivarable on demand.


    Quote Originally Posted by KieKeBooN View Post
    Going along with your Democracy argument, the right move for Crimea would be to wait to the mess to clear up and then move for independence in a more stable situation. But no, their timing was purely opportunistic as in strike when Ukraine is weak. It screams Russia was involved from the get-go and stirred the pot to provoke the Crimeans, just like the EU may or may not have had dealings with protesters in Kiev. It makes perfect sense that Russia pulled of a clkassic agent-provocateur action after realising that they had lost their allies in Kiev and were in fact losing out against the EU.
    And the parliament in Crimea is perfectly legitimised to move for independence any time they see fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by KieKeBooN View Post
    At any rate, even if you're welcomed you have no right to park your armies in foreign territory especially without any formal warning.
    Actually you do. That explains why the Americans have established military bases all over the world among their allied countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by KieKeBooN View Post
    And there were also people welcoming American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq...
    Not the democratically elected local government. Not the army.
    "Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
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  8. #1688
    Seether's Avatar RoTK Workhorse
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    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    To have what? A nationalist/pro West government deny it until riots erupted in Crimea, so that Crimean people would ask for a Russian intervention? And when that happened you'd scream against the ''Russian aggressior regardless''?
    Save it. Save me the time and let's not waste more people's lives.
    Hmm... I'll fix your previous quote for you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    ''Hurr durr it's not an aggression because I hate love Russia no matter what''. Take your prejudice elsewhere.
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  9. #1689

    Default Re: Kiev in flames.Police moves to clear up protesters

    [
    QUOTE=Aanker;13677980]I think there were US warships in the Black Sea during the 2008 Georgian War, that said I was mostly joking and it remains to be seen whether any ship is actually going there now (I won't say "unlikely" though). I honestly don't think the Russian Black Sea fleet is even in a position where it could cause an accident, and if there ever was one, it would probably be caused by a rusty missile going off unexpectedly inside one of their ships...[/QUOTE]
    Someone did an infographic of the Black Sea fleet. It was pretty small. The threat isn't the fleet really. It's the realization by Putin that, "Oh ! They're going to back it up and now what do I do? Better go to Defcon 2."
    Here:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...b28_story.html


    A dated but excellent Tom Clancy novel about a conventional US/USSR conflict (1986).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Storm_Rising

    Here's an update of the actual sighted forces in the Crimea as of March 2 1800 GMT +1

    The changes mostly reflect increased air support with the arrival of the 11 Mi-24 and the Ukrainian SU-27 fighters and the surrounding of the Ukrainian base at Perevalnoye.

    Ukrainian banks are limiting customers to only $100 per day withdrawals.

    Total Russian ships should be around 175 at most.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; March 02, 2014 at 04:42 PM.

  10. #1690

    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    and this pretty much guarantees Czar Putin has pushed the Ukraine into Nato/ the west.

    I'm actually overjoyed that Putin has ed up so badly here.

    This is AT BEST a short term victory for Russia.


    but Long term this will be a disaster for Russia, the EU is going to realize (FINALLY) that the need a military and that continued close ties with the US are essential because in this situation they are forced to standby and watch uselessly. People wont be able to about there being "no threats" with a hostile Russia invading countries right on their door step.


    This will be a disaster for Russia and I will gleefully watch Czar Putin run his nation into the ground

  11. #1691

    Default Re: Kiev in flames.Police moves to clear up protesters

    Quote Originally Posted by Holger Danske View Post
    What the hell are you talking about? You really want to empower a man like Putin?
    It's not up to me to empower him, is it? I don't vote in Russia. He has half the Russian population behind him on his bad days and in this case both supporters and opposition have rallied to his banner, as evidence by the unanimous approval of troop deployment in Crimea. He is already empowered.
    "Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
    Euripides

    "This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which avails us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
    Augustine

  12. #1692

    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Like when the Greek, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian governments stepped down when they faced massive anti-austerity demonstrations or the British government when the students took to the streets?
    His argument is very much valid, because elections are prescribed by a country's consitution, they are not delivarable on demand.
    Being greek, I assume you now what democracy means. It means that if 50% of the country no longer support the Government it's time to step down and go for new elections.

    And the parliament in Crimea is perfectly legitimised to move for independence any time they see fit.
    True, though I'd say the timing is a bit dubious. I have more quarrels with the Russians moving their troops in.

    Actually you do. That explains why the Americans have established military bases all over the world among their allied countries.
    I'm not a big fan of the Americans either, yet the comparison goes awry here. The Russian federation already has a base in Ukraine, which is perfectly fine because it is in agreement between the two nations. However, Kiev never agreed with Russian troops moving into Ukrainian territory which renders such movement to be illegal. Now Crimea may have asked for it, but I'd say that's not enough to put a country on the brink of war.

  13. #1693

    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Quote Originally Posted by KieKeBooN View Post
    It terms of legitimations it would've been a far better option, and I would certainly tone down my rethoric against the Russians should the Crimeans call for Russian protection, this time it just happened far too soon. Plus the willingness of the new Ukrainian government to allow Crimea to secede would need reevaluation before making such claims, though granted in most cases governments don't favour seperatism.



    Yet anyway, let's hope it stays that way, or we may really end up in a war.
    Tell that to the US. They are experts in the field of botched coups.

  14. #1694
    Aanker's Avatar Concordant
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    Default Re: Kiev in flames.Police moves to clear up protesters

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Someone did an infographic of the Black Sea fleet. It was pretty small. The threat isn't the fleet really. It's the realization by Putin that, "Oh ! They're going to back it up and now what do I do? Better go to Defcon 2."
    Here:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...b28_story.html

    The Italian Navy could defeat that if it needed to, but then I think both sides here are working 100% against or with the presumption that there will never be a direct confrontation between NATO/Russia. A ship or two won't cause escalation, much less a nuclear war. Besides, Russia has a ship in Cuba so it's only fair that the U.S. sends one into the Black Sea, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    Russia have managed to weaponize the loneliest and saddest people on the internet by providing them with (sometimes barechested) father figures whom they can adhere to in order to justify their hatred for the current establishment and the society that rejects them.

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  15. #1695

    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Tell that to the US. They are experts in the field of botched coups.
    Oh by all means yes, and successful ones too. You'll never see me defending America's geopolitical history here.

  16. #1696
    Sir Pignans's Avatar The bringer of cheese.
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    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Quote Originally Posted by KieKeBooN View Post
    Being greek, I assume you now what democracy means. It means that if 50% of the country no longer support the Government it's time to step down and go for new elections.
    Actually, if we want to go in depth into what democracy means, it's not actually that.

    Regardless, could I have a source stating that 50% of Ukraine wanted the previous government to step down?
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  17. #1697

    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    It is clearly illegal for Russian troops to go outside their military bases as they have done. And Crimean authorities asking them to do it does not make it OK because they have not yet carried out the referendum for secession.

    However, I will say that it is probably better that professional soldiers maintain order, even if their presence there is illegal, than some armed citizen mob like the ones that have been forming lately. There is less chance of violence that way.

  18. #1698

    Default Re: Kiev in flames.Police moves to clear up protesters

    Italy defeating Russia would be hysterical. I mean, how humiliating for the Russians, right? Not that it's going to happen. Maybe we could enlist some Somali pirates?
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; March 02, 2014 at 04:56 PM.

  19. #1699

    Default Re: Crimea secedes, Russia deploys troops, Ukraine region on brink of war

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans View Post
    Actually, if we want to go in depth into what democracy means, it's not actually that.

    Regardless, could I have a source stating that 50% of Ukraine wanted the previous government to step down?
    Fine, entails then. And we know that support for the Government hit rock bottom and that it was a popular uprising, not one made by a minority.

  20. #1700

    Default Re: Kiev in flames.Police moves to clear up protesters

    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    They have a history of organized violence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_...ng_Golden_Dawn
    Which does not involve acts of terrorism, though. Therefore, not a terrorist organisation. Maybe a criminal organisation, which is currently under investigation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    I'm anchoring my argument on geopolitics. It would patently retarded to allow Russia to get away with invading the rest of Ukraine.
    No, you are shifting the goal posts now. What you have been doing is decrying Russia for pouring troops in the Crimea, because this violates Ukraine's sovereignity as a state. That has been your argument up to now.



    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    That's like saying the Greeks have a historical right to Anatolia and the right to forcibly deport all Turks from Anatolia, because the Turks conquered Anatolia from a Greek state.
    We did up to 1922. But we lost the war, a population exchange ensued and no Greeks live there any more, so we have had no right ever since.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    The whole analogy was about if Putin invaded the rest of Ukraine. If Putin wants to restrict himself to just the Crimea that's all fine and dandy but he seems to be preparing to invade the whole of Ukraine.
    I think he wants to cement his position militarily, so that he can force negotiations to shift around partitioning Ukraine or at least create a de facto puppet state. I, too, am in favour of Nato defending the territorial integrity of the rest of Ukraine, but I doubt Putin would be as stupid as to provoke a massive retaliation from the West, which is bound to happen if he invades the rest of Ukraine. Annexing Crimea he can get away with, because the majority there desire to be united with Russia.



    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    In the Sudetenland, as my first map showed, the majority were German speakers. Here's what Hitler demanded:


    Here's the linguistic make up of Czechoslovakia at that time:

    Maybe if Sudetenland is defined as the uncontiguous set of every settlement where the majority of population were Germans, then the Germans were the majority, I agree. If you go by the official administrative divisions of Czechoslovakia, then according to the ethnographic census the Germans comprised the majority in none of them. And what does the linguistic map show exactly, regional majority or regional plurality?
    "Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
    Euripides

    "This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which avails us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
    Augustine

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