Suure, look at Greece, they definitely stepped down after guerrilla erupted in the streets. Not.
To have what? A nationalist/pro West government deny it until riots erupted in Crimea, so that Crimean people would ask for a Russian intervention? And when that happened you'd scream against the ''Russian aggressior regardless''?
Save it. Save me the time and let's not waste more people's lives.
Except that the locals in Afghanistan and Iraq also fought back the American troops. Who's fighting the Russians in Crimea? Noone.
They have a history of organized violence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_...ng_Golden_Dawn
I'm anchoring my argument on geopolitics. It would patently retarded to allow Russia to get away with invading the rest of Ukraine.International diplomacy does not revolve about "rights" and "wrongs", but might. Still haven't realised that?
Not that it matters anyway, since you are not anchoring your argument on diplomacy, you are making an argument on justice. And unjust treatment, when applied to all, is more just than selective justice.
If you've read anything I said, this is all about preventing them from invading the rest of Ukraine, which they seem poised to do.Good thing they haven't invaded the rest of Ukraine then.
That's like saying the Greeks have a historical right to Anatolia and the right to forcibly deport all Turks from Anatolia, because the Turks conquered Anatolia from a Greek state.But a solid argument on why the Russians have a much more solid historical right to Crimea. By right of conquest did the Tatars settle and by right of conquest they were evicted. Not to mention that they have been allowed to return since the fall of the Soviet Union and they constitute a minority today.
The whole analogy was about if Putin invaded the rest of Ukraine. If Putin wants to restrict himself to just the Crimea that's all fine and dandy but he seems to be preparing to invade the whole of Ukraine.But he didn't restrict himself to Danzig, he waged war on the whole of Poland. So, unless Putin invades the whole of Ukraine, bad analogy.
In the Sudetenland, as my first map showed, the majority were German speakers. Here's what Hitler demanded:That shows the number of seats German and German-Hungarian parties gained in the Chamber of Deputies, not districts with majority German population.
The ethnographic census, which counts actual people, not MPs, and classifies them on the basis of ethnicity, proves that the Germans constituted a minority in all districts of Czechoslovakia: Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia, Slovakia and Ruthenia.
Here's the linguistic make up of Czechoslovakia at that time:
It terms of legitimations it would've been a far better option, and I would certainly tone down my rethoric against the Russians should the Crimeans call for Russian protection, this time it just happened far too soon. Plus the willingness of the new Ukrainian government to allow Crimea to secede would need reevaluation before making such claims, though granted in most cases governments don't favour seperatism.
Yet anyway, let's hope it stays that way, or we may really end up in a war.
Like when the Greek, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian governments stepped down when they faced massive anti-austerity demonstrations or the British government when the students took to the streets?
His argument is very much valid, because elections are prescribed by a country's consitution, they are not delivarable on demand.
And the parliament in Crimea is perfectly legitimised to move for independence any time they see fit.
Actually you do. That explains why the Americans have established military bases all over the world among their allied countries.
Not the democratically elected local government. Not the army.
"Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
Euripides
"This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which avails us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
Augustine
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A Wolf Among Sheep: A Rise of Three Kingdoms AAR
[
QUOTE=Aanker;13677980]I think there were US warships in the Black Sea during the 2008 Georgian War, that said I was mostly joking and it remains to be seen whether any ship is actually going there now (I won't say "unlikely" though). I honestly don't think the Russian Black Sea fleet is even in a position where it could cause an accident, and if there ever was one, it would probably be caused by a rusty missile going off unexpectedly inside one of their ships...[/QUOTE]
Someone did an infographic of the Black Sea fleet. It was pretty small. The threat isn't the fleet really. It's the realization by Putin that, "Oh ! They're going to back it up and now what do I do? Better go to Defcon 2."
Here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...b28_story.html
A dated but excellent Tom Clancy novel about a conventional US/USSR conflict (1986).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Storm_Rising
Here's an update of the actual sighted forces in the Crimea as of March 2 1800 GMT +1
The changes mostly reflect increased air support with the arrival of the 11 Mi-24 and the Ukrainian SU-27 fighters and the surrounding of the Ukrainian base at Perevalnoye.
Ukrainian banks are limiting customers to only $100 per day withdrawals.
Total Russian ships should be around 175 at most.
Last edited by RubiconDecision; March 02, 2014 at 04:42 PM.
and this pretty much guarantees Czar Putin has pushed the Ukraine into Nato/ the west.
I'm actually overjoyed that Putin has ed up so badly here.
This is AT BEST a short term victory for Russia.
but Long term this will be a disaster for Russia, the EU is going to realize (FINALLY) that the need a military and that continued close ties with the US are essential because in this situation they are forced to standby and watch uselessly. People wont be able to about there being "no threats" with a hostile Russia invading countries right on their door step.
This will be a disaster for Russia and I will gleefully watch Czar Putin run his nation into the ground
It's not up to me to empower him, is it? I don't vote in Russia. He has half the Russian population behind him on his bad days and in this case both supporters and opposition have rallied to his banner, as evidence by the unanimous approval of troop deployment in Crimea. He is already empowered.
"Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
Euripides
"This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which avails us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
Augustine
Being greek, I assume you now what democracy means. It means that if 50% of the country no longer support the Government it's time to step down and go for new elections.Like when the Greek, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian governments stepped down when they faced massive anti-austerity demonstrations or the British government when the students took to the streets?
His argument is very much valid, because elections are prescribed by a country's consitution, they are not delivarable on demand.
True, though I'd say the timing is a bit dubious. I have more quarrels with the Russians moving their troops in.And the parliament in Crimea is perfectly legitimised to move for independence any time they see fit.
I'm not a big fan of the Americans either, yet the comparison goes awry here. The Russian federation already has a base in Ukraine, which is perfectly fine because it is in agreement between the two nations. However, Kiev never agreed with Russian troops moving into Ukrainian territory which renders such movement to be illegal. Now Crimea may have asked for it, but I'd say that's not enough to put a country on the brink of war.Actually you do. That explains why the Americans have established military bases all over the world among their allied countries.
The Italian Navy could defeat that if it needed to, but then I think both sides here are working 100% against or with the presumption that there will never be a direct confrontation between NATO/Russia. A ship or two won't cause escalation, much less a nuclear war. Besides, Russia has a ship in Cuba so it's only fair that the U.S. sends one into the Black Sea, no?
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It is clearly illegal for Russian troops to go outside their military bases as they have done. And Crimean authorities asking them to do it does not make it OK because they have not yet carried out the referendum for secession.
However, I will say that it is probably better that professional soldiers maintain order, even if their presence there is illegal, than some armed citizen mob like the ones that have been forming lately. There is less chance of violence that way.
Italy defeating Russia would be hysterical. I mean, how humiliating for the Russians, right? Not that it's going to happen. Maybe we could enlist some Somali pirates?
Last edited by RubiconDecision; March 02, 2014 at 04:56 PM.
Which does not involve acts of terrorism, though. Therefore, not a terrorist organisation. Maybe a criminal organisation, which is currently under investigation.
No, you are shifting the goal posts now. What you have been doing is decrying Russia for pouring troops in the Crimea, because this violates Ukraine's sovereignity as a state. That has been your argument up to now.
We did up to 1922. But we lost the war, a population exchange ensued and no Greeks live there any more, so we have had no right ever since.
I think he wants to cement his position militarily, so that he can force negotiations to shift around partitioning Ukraine or at least create a de facto puppet state. I, too, am in favour of Nato defending the territorial integrity of the rest of Ukraine, but I doubt Putin would be as stupid as to provoke a massive retaliation from the West, which is bound to happen if he invades the rest of Ukraine. Annexing Crimea he can get away with, because the majority there desire to be united with Russia.
Maybe if Sudetenland is defined as the uncontiguous set of every settlement where the majority of population were Germans, then the Germans were the majority, I agree. If you go by the official administrative divisions of Czechoslovakia, then according to the ethnographic census the Germans comprised the majority in none of them. And what does the linguistic map show exactly, regional majority or regional plurality?
"Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
Euripides
"This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which avails us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
Augustine