Ukraine and Crimea development thread

[snuggans]

This is an interesting article, explaining why the situation is more complicated than what either side says. I suggest you all read it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/wo...rebellion.html

what about the Ukrainians with family or property in Crimea, Slovyansk, Donetsk, etc who don't wish to be ruled by Putin? and what about those who have already been displaced?

They bristled at any suggestion that their seizure of government buildings was wrong. Pro-Western protesters in Kiev have held government buildings and the city’s main square since last fall, they said.“Why did America support those acts, but is in opposition to ours?” said Maksim, the young former paratrooper who organized Yuri’s snipers by the bridge. “These are the contradictions of the West.”

why are they intentionally leaving out an assload of information here? what they're saying is laughable.

[ivan_the_terrible]

what about the Ukrainians with family or property in Crimea, Slovyansk, Donetsk, etc who don't wish to be ruled by Putin? and what about those who have already been displaced?

why are they intentionally leaving out an assload of information here? what they're saying is laughable.

What about them... what do you want me to say to that? You're trying real hard to make it look like I support the rebels. PAY ATTENTION: I don't support them. I don't speak on their behalf. So take your questions elsewhere.

All I did was bring attention to how neither of the two narratives we are generally presented with -- "unrest orchestrated by Moscow's agents" or "entirely local uprising" -- captures the complexity of the situation.

It's nice that you are so concerned about Ukrainians, but your consistent black-and-white view of events makes it clear you have little more than a cursory understanding of the place.

Wow, so a major Western outlet is putting out an article that isn't blindly pro Kiev? This confuses me, I thought that the entire Western press corps was of one mind

It's good journalism -- something that is harder and harder to come by in both state-controlled media like in Putin's Russia and in the McNews info-tainment garbage that most people voluntarily gravitate towards in the West.

Though I should probably make it clear that I still find the McNews model preferable, in the end.

[Geronimo2006]

When Ukraine took independence the majority there were ethnic Russians. The "trick" here is that a child that is born after 1991 is considered Ukrainian even if it has ethnic russian parents. So you have todays stats that claim that ethnic Russians are only 20%. This is false in reality. And this is why the majority of the soldiers hesitate to operate against the rebels. Its like shooting your own people

The majority were not ethnic Russians. See Census figures here. In 1989 it was 72% Ukrainian.

[Roma_Victrix]

Although its obvious to some, it's perhaps important to note that not all Russian-speakers in Ukraine are with the separatists:

Vision of united Ukraine under violent attack

By Simon Denyer, Published: May 4

DONETSK, Ukraine — Diana Berg and Ekaterina Kostrova were brought up speaking Russian, but in the past few weeks they have discovered in themselves a new sense of Ukrainian patriotism. Theirs was a vision of a united Ukraine, a country with “European values” but with close ties to Russia, a country where it does not matter whether you speak Russian or Ukrainian at home — because you can express yourself freely in either language.

Little by little, that vision is under attack — by men with guns and stone-hurling, stick-wielding mobs, by street battles and molotov cocktails.

“Most of us don’t want to be a part of the European Union, but we don’t want to be part of Russia either,” Kostrova, 23, said last week in the apartment the women share in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk. “We just want to live in a united Ukraine.”

“We insist it is possible to stay in Ukraine, be ethnic Russian and speak the Russian language,” Berg said.

Kostrova describes herself as a writer. The 34-year-old Berg is a graphic designer. Both speak English fluently. Neither had any inclination to get involved in politics, at least not until gunmen took over their city and proclaimed it the capital of the new pro-Russian, independent Donetsk People’s Republic. There is talk of a “silent majority” in Donetsk opposed to the division of Ukraine, but Kostrova and Berg decided they could not remain silent.

“We could not go on, just passively observing,” Berg said. “We saw this catastrophe going on around us, and we wanted to do something. That’s why we gathered the first rally.”

“We asked ourselves, ‘What the hell is going on?’ ” Kostrova added. “We felt a mixture of rage and anger and despair. We couldn’t understand why nobody was doing anything. So we decided to do something.”

What they did was set up a page on a popular social-media site here and invite people to join in a “grass-roots” rally for a united Ukraine. They expected a few hundred to attend. On March 4, they say, 2,000 people came. The following day, it was 10,000. They describe their supporters as “mostly educated, free-minded, critically thinking people.”

But their attempts at peaceful protest were met with hatred and abuse. Kostrova says her brother and cousins support the separatists and have posted insulting comments on social media about her. Berg said she has received death threats.

On April 28, they marched through the streets of Donetsk, joined by men, women and children, with flowers in their hair and Ukrainian flags flying high. They walked into a trap, attacked by hundreds of men who were wielding clubs and whips and carrying gasoline bombs, commonly known as molotov cocktails. Riot police stood by and watched. Some, Berg said, even joined in beating the marchers.

“We were beaten at our march just for having Ukrainian flags,” Kostrova said. “The pro-Russians who attacked us said we are fascists, but they burnt our flags and beat our people — so who are the fascists?”

The women fled into nearby buildings but decided that the city was no longer safe. On Wednesday, they decided to leave for the Black Sea port city of Odessa. “I got sick of being afraid for the safety of my own life,” Berg said. “Nobody is coming here to help us.”

The pair say they feel abandoned by the new government in Kiev, as well as the “Euromaidan” protesters who toppled the pro-Moscow government of Viktor Yanukovych in February. “People from this region went to Kiev for Euromaidan, but now nobody there cares about what is going on here,” Berg said.

But her story took an ugly turn when she joined a pro-Ukrainian rally in Odessa on Friday, attended by thousands of soccer fans before a game that night, as well as ordinary citizens.

The peaceful march came under attack by hundreds of men armed with sticks and shields, some carrying guns and molotov cocktails.

But the soccer fans, the most organized and fanatical of whom are known as the “ultras,” were no pushover. A group of them, carrying shields and sticks and wearing helmets, had assembled to defend the marchers.

For hours, the streets of Odessa were the scene of running battles between stone-throwing mobs from both sides. Photographs show masked men using the cover of police barricades to shoot at the pro-Ukrainian side; three people were fatally shot.

Eventually, the pro-Russian forces were overwhelmed and fled.

That evening, pro-Ukrainian forces counterattacked, burning tents where some of the separatists had been camped and attacking a building where they had taken shelter.

Berg watched the attack unfold. She says the pro-Ukrainian supporters were fired on from the roof of a building but admits that some of them threw gasoline bombs at the structure. Flames enveloped the building. About 40 people died, choked by smoke or after jumping from windows in desperation.

Earlier in the day, Berg had been triumphant. “Odessa is ours,” she had said. But later, as she realized the scale of the tragedy she had witnessed, she was appalled.

“It is awful, it is terrifying. I can’t imagine how their families feel,” she said. This, she said, was not her vision of a peaceful, united Ukraine.

“But I see how violence causes violence,” she said. “It was a peaceful event, just Odessa citizens, and they were attacked. They just shot them with guns. It made people angry, and they decided to fight back.”

Berg says she and her family are receiving hundreds of death threats a day, with her address and photographs posted on Russian social-media sites alongside abusive comments. She wonders whether she will ever be able to return to her home town.

[Geronimo2006]

Ukrainian veterans in Kirovohrad have banned the separatist St.George's ribbon from the Victory Day celebrations.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

There is a guy called Putin who will answer for that. And for many other things. Saddam Hussein can confirm the West means business.

I'm paraphrasing: "There is a guy called Dromikaites who will answer for that".

"Putin is to blame! Putin everywhere!", a typical Russophobian slogan.

[Geronimo2006]

This is probably the man who put Putin up to this expansionism.

Aleksandr Gelyevich Dugin (Russian: Алекса́ндр Ге́льевич Ду́гин, born 7 January 1962) is a Russian political scientist, traditionalist, and one of the most popular ideologists of the creation of a Eurasian empire that would be against the "North Atlantic interests". He is known for his proximity to fascism,[1][2][3][4] and had close ties to the Kremlin and Russian military.[5] Dugin serves as an adviser to State Duma speaker (and key member of the ruling United Russia party) Sergei Naryshkin.[6]


Head of the Department of Sociology of International Relations of Moscow State University. Director of the Center for Conservative Studies at the Faculty of Sociology MSU.


Dugin was the leading organizer of the National Bolshevik Party, National Bolshevik Front, and Eurasia Party. His political activities are directed toward restoration of the Russian Empire through partitioning of the former Soviet republics, such as Georgia and Ukraine, and unification with Russian-speaking territories, especially Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.[7][8] He is known for the book Foundations of Geopolitics.

This vision appears to be what's happening.

[Derpy Hooves]

"Putin is to blame! Putin everywhere!", a typical Russophobian slogan.

​Well given that Putin had sent unidentified soldiers into Crimea and supported the referendum that has helped to continue to destabilize Ukraine, it does seem reasonable that Putin would be behind the unrest in the east.

[Geronimo2006]

The last barrier to complete brainwashing of Russian people is in danger of being shut down by the govt.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

The last barrier to complete brainwashing of Russian people is in danger of being shut down by the govt.

Once they offered that Leningrad was to be handed over to the German nazis in 1940's? They are just a fifth column, no more.

[Geronimo2006]

Once they offered that Leningrad was to be handed over to the German nazis in 1940's? They are just a fifth column, no more.

They had a poll on it. 58% voted yes. The issue was whether or not lives could have been saved. Perhaps naive but considering 1 million died it is an arguable point.

Anyway that was just an excuse. The real reason is they are liberal and Putin hates liberals.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

​Well given that Putin had sent unidentified soldiers into Crimea and supported the referendum that has helped to continue to destabilize Ukraine, it does seem reasonable that Putin would be behind the unrest in the east.

Yeah, Putin arson building with people in Odessa, and finished off wounded who jumped from the upper floors to escape the fire. And Putin banned the Odessa police hinder the nazis, and banned firefighters to extinguish the fire, and of course, Putin ordered the Nemirovskiy, governor of Odessa to make a statement that all actions against the "separatists" in the city are legal

They had a poll on it. 58% voted yes.

A large part of their audience - the fifth column too. So answer "yes" could only ignoramuses who don't know the history of own country, or a complete morons.

The issue was whether or not lives could have been saved. Perhaps naive but considering 1 million died it is an arguable point.

Honestly say that this is a loaded question. According to this logic, the Soviet Union had to surrender in the first days of the war to save millions.
In Pushkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushkin,_Saint_Petersburg) which was controlled by nazis, was killed - 8 585, died of starvation - 9 514, hijacked to prison - 17 968. In 1942 in Pushkin remained 250 people, and population of this city before war is 56 thousands. It's obvious that if the nazis took Leningrad, the majority of the population would be very quickly exterminated in the concentration camps.

Anyway that was just an excuse. The real reason is they are liberal and Putin hates liberals.

He's not alone. Many people in Russia hate liberals, because they have made the country a beggar in 90s.

[Nevins]

Yeah, Putin arson building with people in Odessa, and finished off wounded who jumped from the upper floors to escape the fire. And Putin banned the Odessa police hinder the nazis, and banned firefighters to extinguish the fire, and of course, Putin ordered the Nemirovskiy, governor of Odessa to make a statement that all actions against the "separatists" in the city are legal

No one who has a working brain would say these things because Putin doesn't have direct control of Ukraine like he has Russia. Do you just type things or is there thought involved somewhere in the process.

He's not alone. Many people in Russia hate liberals, because they have made the country a beggar in 90s.

You don't even know what liberal means do you

[snuggans]

Yeah, Putin arson building with people in Odessa, and finished off wounded who jumped from the upper floors to escape the fire. And Putin banned the Odessa police hinder the nazis, and banned firefighters to extinguish the fire, and of course, Putin ordered the Nemirovskiy, governor of Odessa to make a statement that all actions against the "separatists" in the city are legal

there were firefighters filmed putting out the fire. the police was not banned by the government, they were disarmed, you have to consider that not only is Putin sending the militants against the police, but the police's disarmament might have to do with a question of loyalty and the fact that there are also several divisions of Russian military recently surrounding Ukraine's borders, and the fact that the previous version of the police were shooting down unarmed protesters.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

You don't even know what liberal means do you

You don't even know what I mean.

there were firefighters filmed putting out the fire.

Firefighters appeared on the place of this tragedy after more than an hour!

[Nevins]

You don't even know what I mean.

No see I know what the general meaning of a liberal is, the problem is that you don't. Its ok, I can link you to a little reading if you need it.

[Sire Brenshar]

Not really that relevant, as I don't consider the US to have been very influential about the crises so far (sanctions aside), but BBC made this short video I thought was pretty neat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lu9...sm2FNe6b5Uc4yi


You know, there's nothing all that special about losing consciousness to smoke and dying. Its arguably worse to get shot or beaten and dying slowly. But I get it the burning of the Odessa trade unions building makes for a wonderful propaganda story. All it needed was a few explosions and maybe a heroic shoot out instead of the utter chaos of people shooting each other at random and screaming in panic.

[Roma_Victrix]

RIP to the dead on both sides.

[Geronimo2006]

Kyiv Post blogger and military analyst Dmitry Tymchuk says the Russians are planning a major outbreak of terrorism on Victory Day (May 9th), and that it took 3 hours to get reinforcements to Kostyantynivka after Ukrainian soldiers were attacked by terrorists with rocket launchers and machine guns. He says there are major problems with command and control, a lack of cooperation between law enforcement agencies, an absence of military orders and goal setting of energy and resources harming the anti-terror operation. He also says the Odessa police were supporting the terrorists who were attacking civilians, and that this led to pro-Ukrainians chasing them into the building and that whatever happened, the ultimate blame rests with the separatists.

He's not alone. Many people in Russia hate liberals, because they have made the country a beggar in 90s.

But in a democracy they should be entitled express their view. I don't know if I'd consider sending tanks to shell the parliament building "liberal". Certainly Yeltsin on balance were more liberal than Putin. But social issues in my opinion were not the reason the economy collapsed in the 1980's. The reason was the inevitable growing pains of economic restructiring after the collapse of Communism. And no matter who was in power by now, the oil price would have ensured Russian economic growth would have occurred regardless. In fact if anything Russia is now more corrupt than under Yeltsin. It has been reported annual bribery is ten times what it was under Yeltsin. I don't think social liberal values like freedom of speech/media had anything to do with those problems.

[Condottiere 40K]

If it's just a question of language, make three of them official, Ukrainian, Russian and English.