Carthage: From macedonian style phalanx to hoplites

[Davidos]

Hi folks ,

I have one curious questions that I always wanted to ask. In RS1 I remember that the Carthaginians had some units using the macedonian style of phalanx. In RS 2 however we see the Carthaginians fighting in the greek hoplite phalanx style. I always wanted to ask this question but I always forget when I come here. How did you come to such a conclusion?

[dvk901]

Well, there are a few things that need to be considered. For one, fighting in the hoplite 'style' was a form of fighting that goes way back before the era we cover. It was a style focused on individual heroism, use of the spear both under and over hand, and the formations were less 'strict', shall we say.

The phalanx is, on the other hand, a 'formation'...a tightly packed formation of men that is focused on the strength of unity of a bunch of individuals, and not on the individual soldier. This form of combat formation was considered 'for the good of all' the men in it, and was much more disciplined.

When you combine the two, and we used evidence that some Carthaginian forces were trained by Greeks in the 'hoplite style' using the 'phalanx formation', you have a formation of men using the hoplite spear but in a phalanx formation that was more disciplined and 'close'.

This was likely a 'development' or morphing of tactics as more and more Greek influenced nations faced the Romans, since the Macedonian Phalanx was becoming obsolete because of its lack of mobility. The long spears made it difficult, and sort of 'locked' the unit into one form of fighting, whereas the hoplites could both manuver AND use the phalanx formation. Even the Romans were known to do this using their pila....I think mostly in the east against cavalry. We even considered giving the Romans a 'phalanx capable legion.....but that leads to the bigger problem.

The rationale behind a thing is often limited simply by what you can do it RTW. Each unit is only capable of two formations, and every model is limited in the sense that it can only be designed for two. When you add the fact that RS2 uses multiple models for multiple units (Tone even designed models that could portray entirely different units) you still can only use the two formations and weapon use types that that model is capable of. So in RS2, a 'hoplite style' model\unit is and can only be capable of fighting in the hoplite style formation....not phalanx, because the animations would be wrong. A phalanx unit is designed to be a phalanx unit in the model.

For example, the early libyan spearmen uses a model that also is used for three other units that are hoplites. It probably 'could have' been a phalanx unit, but because it shared with other hoplite units, it couldn't.

I hope that makes sense. And in truth, comparing RS2 to RS1 is like comparing EB to Rome2. RS1 was largely put together by your's truly, and where other factions than Rome were concerned, let's just say my knowledge was rather limited. RS2, on the other hand, had the benefit of a number of historians who helped us flesh out our units, and a much better overall plan.

[Alavaria]

There are no generic pikemen they can be given? Did they never use things like levy pikemen etc?

It seemed a bit wierd to me that for the Sparta faction, there are medium and elite pikemen, but no equivalent of levy pikemen. Except in the mercenary building via AoR. Apparently the Perioikoi pikemen are much easier to raise than levied pikes, which is hilarious.

[Alavaria]

Actually, is it even possible to make it so the hoplites will use an overlapping shields formation? Most of the hoplites just stand in ranks, each one well separated from the one next to him. It looks very unlike a hoplite phalanx.

[Darth Bane1]

Actually, is it even possible to make it so the hoplites will use an overlapping shields formation? Most of the hoplites just stand in ranks, each one well separated from the one next to him. It looks very unlike a hoplite phalanx.

In Rome Total Realism Hoplites form a perfect phalanx with slightly overlapping shields and it feels like the real phalanx. The men stand close together and hold their line everytime. Maybe I try to find out how they made that and port that to RSII for testing. That's one thing that bothers me while playing with Hoplites.

[dvk901]

You start getting 'clipping' of model parts if you put them too close together (like shields going through shields).

[Sertorio]

There is no hard evidence that the Carthagineans ever adopted the Phalangites Phalanx. Polybius who wrote about the Macedonian phalanx and the Legion, claimed the army of Hannibal was as different of both. Also deploying Phalangites on the extremes of the battle line is unusual, though the man was not exactly conventional. Polybius has the African Infantry equiped with Roman equipment at Cannae. Of course he could be referring only to armour, but if he his referring to the entire panoply then, the Lybians of Hannibal would be fighting much in the Roman javelin, sword style.
But he also mentions Hannibal veterans leveling their spears at Zama, and describes them as spearmen at Italy so there is room for debate.

As for the Spartans they were the last to introduce the Phalangite and quite possibly only the Spartiates and the Periokoi were retrained as Phalangites. In fact the Periokoi were the closest thing to levy in the Spartan society.

[Sertorio]

Edit the EDU. You have a great tutorial for that in the workshop section by Aradan. One of the lines of each unit refers to spacing between men.
Then it's just a question of try and error.

[Alavaria]

It also uses the short_pike pseudo-phalanx, doesn't it? (underhand spears)

[Sertorio]

The usual animation for underhand spear is fs_spearman. short_pike is an attribute that can be used or not but it does not exactly change the hand position of the spear. It can also be used with/without Phalanx attribute. You have an example of the underhand animation on the triari.