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Thread: Ancient vendettas.

  1. #1
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Ancient vendettas.

    Here we can all debate, in a respectful manner, of course, about history and her offshoot, archeology. This thread is supposed to be more suitable for a more relaxed discussion about pretty much every issue related to the noble science of history: Did Xerxes I really cause terrible nightmares for innumerable generations of Babylonian civilians? Has the heroic victory of Grand Port negated the shame of Trafalgar? What role did the Ottoman Sultanate play in the Great Famine of Ireland? Single sentences suffice for a new thread to be brought into light, while even questions like "List your favourite marshals of Napoleon?" and "Who was cleverer? Czar Peter III or Nicholas II?" are tolerated. Of course, always keep in mind that even in this thread, despite its lighter atmosphere, the Terms of Service still apply, so personal references, insults and etc. are to be avoided.

    Let the things done by man not be forgotten in time, and that great and marvelous deeds, all of them displayed by the TWC users, not lose their glory, including among others what was the cause of their debating with each other.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; April 26, 2020 at 06:54 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Historical arguments.

    I'll toss a starting topic then.

    Who's your favorite military leader from your country?

    For me, it would be Jan Žižka. Rather interesting figure. Born to an impoverished noble, raised in royal court, lost an eye in his youth, became a highwayman, got pardoned, became a mercenary, fought at Grunwald for Polish and maybe at Agincourt for English, became prominent military leader of Hussite uprising and devised tactics that enabled them, in times when knightly cavalry was the decisive weapon on battlefield, to defeat several crusades led by German knights without heavy cavalry of their own. Supposedly he never lost a battle (although, given the fragmentary information about his life from pre-Hussite times, that can be disputed), and died from a boil, probably from an infected wound.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Historical arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Who's your favorite military leader from your country? .
    US Grant. However, Washington, Marshall, Meigs, and Mahan were all equally outstanding leaders.
    Last edited by Dick Cheney.; February 10, 2020 at 03:45 PM.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Historical arguments.

    Well well well...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...structure.html

    Interesting window into earliest prehistoric carpentry.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Historical arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Well well well...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...structure.html

    Interesting window into earliest prehistoric carpentry.
    The press coverage is a bit misleading. Being the earliest extant structure doesn’t necessarily make it the earliest carpentry or even the earliest structure of its kind. The issue may be mostly one of preservation. According to dendrochronology, the wood in this structure dates to 5256/55 BCE. The carved wooden Shigir Idol dates to about 9500 BCE. The Pesse canoe was constructed sometime between 8040 BCE and 7510 BCE. Both would have long since decomposed if they hadn't ended up in peat bogs.

    The dating of this well coincides with the arrival of Neolithic people in the area. There have been two wooden wells found in Hungary (Tiszakürt and Sajószentpéter) which may be older (5600–5400 and 5400–5200 BCE respectively), but the dating methodology is less precise. Wells constructed of stone that date back to at least 6500 BCE have been found in northern modern Israel, one at the same site as one of the earliest megalith structures which spread across Europe with Neolithic people. Using stone in the Levant makes sense, but I imagine somewhere along the way Neolithic people probably also created wells of wood before arriving in central Europe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  6. #6

    Default Re: Historical arguments.

    The article doesn't go much into detail about highlights of this find, you'd need to read original Czech articles. The precision and grooving used to fit the planks together is surprising and unique for the period and culture, given the fact that oak is one of hardest woods in the area and it was achieved using only stone tools.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Historical arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    The article doesn't go much into detail about highlights of this find, you'd need to read original Czech articles. The precision and grooving used to fit the planks together is surprising and unique for the period and culture, given the fact that oak is one of hardest woods in the area and it was achieved using only stone tools.
    Yeah, the construction is really interesting. I have access to the journal publication:

    Until recently this construction design with grooved corner posts and inserted planks was only known from the Bronze Age, Roman times and the Middle Ages (Gollnisch-Moos, 1999; Rageth, 1986; Tegel et al., 2012). The existence of this type of construction in the Early Neolithic Period, i.e., a few thousand years earlier, was confirmed by the dendrochronological dating of the well from Uničov, Czech Republic (5093–5085 BC) (Rybníček et al., 2018). The dendrochronological dating of the Ostrov well even further confirms the existence of this design at least 150 years earlier...

    The ends of the horizontal planks of the Uničov well were chamfered, whereas this is not the case of the Ostrov well. As mentioned above, the tool marks at the plank ends are likely tool marks caused by shortening the planks to the required length. This also corresponds to the slightly wider grooves in the corner posts of the Ostrov well compared to the width of the grooves in the Uničov well. The chamfering of the plank ends from the Uničov well was necessary because thicker planks (up to 9 cm) were used than in the Ostrov well, where the thickest planks reached 5.5 cm in width.
    Images of individuals pieces:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Some other LBK wells:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  8. #8

  9. #9
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    In the Levantine Sea, in the area between Lebanon and Cyprus, among the several shipwrecks discovered, a ''colossal'' Ottoman trade ship was also found, which is estimated to have sunk during the reign of the Sultan Murad IV, in the early 17th century. Its cargo includes several luxury goods, including porcelain dishware from China, jars filled with Indian spice and copper coffee pots. Some argue that it was destined for the imperial court, but I'm not sure how reliable these conclusions are. However, the discovery has also sparked a bit of political controversy, as the company behind the excavation and the Antiquities Department of Cyprus accuse each other of illegally attempting to profit from the valuable archeological artifacts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Who's your favorite military leader from your country?
    5 months later...

    I'd choose Marshal Suchet, because, although his reputation remains obscure and is not even comparable to that of several of his colleagues, he actually performed greatly in a difficult front, where even Masséna didn't manage to overcome the difficulties. Eastern Spain was pretty much the only region of the Iberian Peninsula, where the guerilla was dealt with quite successfully, which indicates that Suchet could also perform well, under the conditions of unconventional warfare.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; April 26, 2020 at 07:16 AM. Reason: The north remembers...

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Who was Napoleon's best marshal?

    A lot of people say Davout. I would be inclined to say Davout as well, although he never got to command his own campaign. Massena comes off favorably since he won so many campaigns. Those easily go in the top two spots. The third spot would probably go to Soult for his campaigning in Iberia. Although suffering defeats in the field, he did manage to keep up with Wellington's maneuvers, I think he comes off rather favorably during the 1813/14 campaigns. A lot of people might argue Suchet and while I value Suchet's efforts in Spain, he never commanded armies as large as those others. The other spot probably goes to Poniatowski, although he was not a very talented general he somehow managed to contend with an Austrian army all on his own.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  11. #11
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Eh, in my opinion, Soult is quite overrated. He's supposed to excel in manoeuvres and battle planning, but the execution usually left a lot to be desired. Where he truly excelled was in politics: An ardent ultra-royalist and War Minister in 1814, he turned into a committed Bonapartist overnight. I personally prefer Gouvion Saint-Cyr over him, although it is true that he wasn't provided with many chances for his talent to shine.

    Anyway, the ultimate question is who was the worst marshal. I think the most usual answer is Ney, because of how absurdly hyped he is in the public perception of the Napoleonic era, but this is a bit unjust, although the emperor relied on him way too much. That being said, MacDonald, Victor and Oudinot were also given independent commands, but their performance was usually mediocre, to be honest. So, I'd personally choose Marmont and not because of his defection in 1814. That was probably his wisest, albeit not very altruistic, decision, since the continuation of the conflict was meaningless anyway. He's also credited for the campaign in Dalmatia and his theoretical knowledge, but his career is marked by numerous blunders and Napoleonic nepotism at its worst (or maybe not, Jérôme is probably the strongest candidate). Also, he managed to actually doom two distinct dynasties. If he had not handled the Paris insurrection so poorly, Charles X and his family might not have been forced to abandon France.

  12. #12
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    The spread of the house mouse from Near East to Europe coincided with the expansion of early farming and grain storage. And with the mice came the cats too.^^

    https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/...rove-1.8856783

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    The spread of the house mouse from Near East to Europe coincided with the expansion of early farming and grain storage. And with the mice came the cats too.^^

    https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/...rove-1.8856783
    You can tell the difference between the bones of house mice and their local Levantine relatives, so their presence can be used as evidence of sedentary human occupation in absence of architecture. From the Late Bronze through the Iron Age, industrial scale copper mining was carried out at a couple of sites in southern modern Israel and Jordan, but other a few exceptions from the periods under Egyptian rule, there is no architecture associated with the mines. The local people of this region were the Edomites of the Bible. They were nomadic, but as it turns out, they were the ones running these massive mining operations. Usually there are no house mice associated with their material culture, but at the mines there are. So lack of architecture, but the presence of house mice, means they were likely living in tents year round at the mines.

    There are two sub-species of wild cats in Israel related to domestic cats, and I can't take either of them seriously.

    The Galilee Cat:



    And the African Wildcat of the Negev:



    Compare either to this local fearsome creature:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  14. #14

    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    What is that in the spoiler?

  15. #15
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    A bit depressing how the discussion has degenerated from the First Empire to mammals and rodents of rather disputable credentials.
    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    What is that in the spoiler?
    I think it's a rock hyrax. It has quite a prominent presence in the Old Testament.

  16. #16
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    If i look at the rock hyrax, i must think at Ice Age.^^
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    That particular hyrax now considers himself to be the sovereign of the historical En Gedi, where according to Josephus, the Sicarii who had come down from Masada engaged in various forms of malfeasance.

    This is one of his many wives:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "And David went up from there and lived in the strongholds of En Gedi."
    ~ 1 Samuel 23:29

    As may already be obvious, the hyrax's closest evolutionary relatives are elephants and manatees.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  18. #18

    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    That particular hyrax now considers himself to be the sovereign of the historical En Gedi, where according to Josephus, the Sicarii who had come down from Masada engaged in various forms of malfeasance.
    Malfeasance? MALFEASANCE? You are just saying that because they were Jews...
    This is one of his many wives:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    <Looks at her, looks at him>
    The womenfolks attracted to power...

    "And David went up from there and lived in the strongholds of En Gedi."
    ~ 1 Samuel 23:29

    As may already be obvious, the hyrax's closest evolutionary relatives are elephants and manatees.
    The resemblance is uncanny.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    The resemblance is uncanny.
    I'd say he's somewhat of a modern King David, though without the extensive and exceedingly charitable press coverage. Whereas Hyrax David lives at En Gedi with a harem, Biblical David lived there with men and goats (1 Samuel 24:2).

    To be fair, the Hebrew text clearly refers to these guys:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    So at least there's an air of sophistication.
    En Gedi is an unusual place. It was never more than a village surrounded by arid wilderness, far from any population center. Yet, it was a royal estate of the kings of Judah in the Seventh Century BCE, and later under the Hasmonians. In between, it was assaulted by Nebuchadnezzar II's army and occupied by the Achaemenids. Mark Antony took it away from Herod and gave it to Cleopatra as a gift. Sometime thereafter, it evidently became an imperial estate, as it was referred to in a local early Second Century document as "the village of Lord Caesar". The reason being that a rare and valuable plant called afarsemon was grown there, probably a species of of the genus Commiphora (which also includes frankincense and myrrh), but we don't know for certain. Inscriptions from the village in the later Roman period curse anyone who commits various crimes including those who "reveal the secret of the town".
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #20
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Spanish archeologist sentenced for fraud. If the details this article lists are correct, I'm really surprised how Gil's claims were ever taken seriously. I'm not an expert at Latin epigraphy, but I'm pretty sure that commas weren't very common in ancient inscriptions.

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