Catalan independence referendum is illegal, Spanish PM claims

[hellheaven1987]

I wonder why Spain is so desperately trying to hold Catalonia despite both are future provinces of Brussels...

Spain's prime minister has called a referendum on independence for Catalonia "illegal" in his state of the union address.

Mariano Rajoy vowed to block the vote, which the Catalan authorities intend to hold on 9 November.

Both Spain's ruling conservative party and the Socialist opposition have long stated their rejection of a referendum.

But in recent months, the Catalan regional government has vowed to press ahead even without Madrid's blessing.

Mr Rajoy told the Spanish parliament during the annual state of the nation debate that "this referendum can't take place, it is not legal".

He added: "It is the entire Spanish people who have the capacity to decide what Spain is."

Mr Rajoy also addressed Spain's economic problems in his speech, saying that the country had turned a corner and was "part of the driving engine" of Europe.

He also revised the growth forecast upwards from 0.7% to 1% for 2014, and promised tax cuts for 12 million of Spain's 17 million taxpayers.

Source

Well, what he said is true since Spanish parliament would never allow a referendum anyway, but that does not mean Catalans do not deserve one; perhaps it is time for the human right champion in lowland pressuring Spain?

[Phalanx300]

If the Catalan people really want this it should happen, the prime minister saying it is not allowed will only strenghten their will to get it done. After this, I gues Venice and Bavaria are next.

[Bobz]

If the Catalan people really want this it should happen, the prime minister saying it is not allowed will only strenghten their will to get it done. After this, I gues Venice and Bavaria are next.

Wait, there's a Bavarian independence movement? They wish to form a country based entirely on Bratwurst, Beer and Lederhosen I presume.

The easiest thing to do would be to just let Catalonia have it's independence referendum, then put the issue back in the box again. Is there even high support for independence there? Or is it just opportune grandstanding by the governing party at a time of financial crisis?

[LordKainES]

Catalonia is Spain! and an illegal referendum will be never be done! The law is clear!

It doesnt matter what nationalists try to do... they´ll never achieve nothing... we are a democratic country!!! Spain oppress nobody so No country will recognize a catalan nation!

Catalonia is an "oppressed" nation which its educational system (as it has full autonomy) force citizens to have a full catalan education with no possibility to choose a bilingual education both in spanish or catalan... as an example of many others about the real Catalonia... and not the one nationalists try to show...

Independentism has its origins in dirty propaganda, lies and myths...

I´m so calm because we´ll never see what in history never happened...

[Poach]

we are a democratic country!!!

... and yet a democratic vote is being blocked for political and economic reasons. Perhaps Spain should learn from Britain's example and allow the Referendum, encourage debate on the subject and illustrate the benefits of remaining Spanish. Repeatedly attempting to sweep the issue under the carpet only emboldens the Nationalists and drives the undecided voters into their camp.

Let them have their Referendum and if being Spanish is indeed superior to being Catalonian, the "No" campaign will win because the electorate will see that being Spanish is better. If being Catalonian is better, then refusing their referendum is indeed oppressive.

[knight of meh]

I wonder why Spain is so desperately trying to hold Catalonia despite both are future provinces of Brussels...

your bias is showing

... and yet a democratic vote is being blocked for political and economic reasons. Perhaps Spain should learn from Britain's example and allow the Referendum, encourage debate on the subject and illustrate the benefits of remaining Spanish. Repeatedly attempting to sweep the issue under the carpet only emboldens the Nationalists and drives the undecided voters into their camp.

Let them have their Referendum and if being Spanish is indeed superior to being Catalonian, the "No" campaign will win because the electorate will see that being Spanish is better. If being Catalonian is better, then refusing their referendum is indeed oppressive.

don't forget to get an incompetent leadership to lead the independence party so you can definitely win :


I am hearing alot that this is illegal is it actually illegal in a pretty much federalised state for one of those states to leave ?

[hellheaven1987]

I am hearing alot that this is illegal is it actually illegal in a federalised state for one of those states to leave ?

Apartly the issue is Catalonia is trying to hold a referendum of independence without approvement of federal parliament, and federal parliament already said it would not approve regardless the condition in any form and any time.

[knight of meh]

Apartly the issue is Catalonia is trying to hold a referendum of independence without approvement of federal parliament, and federal parliament already said it would not approve regardless the condition in any form and any time.

so it's pretty much a case of Catalonia parliament says yes ; Madrid says no? i thought if they were claiming illegality there would be a constitutional basis or some such.

Under Spanish law no legal referendum can take place without the agreement of the Madrid Government, which has repeatedly refused permission. Catalonia claims the referendum is 'non-binding' and thus entirely legal: it's nothing more than an opinion poll the likes of which newspapers, websites and magazines conduct all the time without asking Madrid's permission. Obviously, while on a technicality this might be the truth, Madrid vows to prevent the poll taking place because they fear (rightly so) that it will become de facto official, even if by the books it isn't.

thank you ^^ .

[Condottiere 40K]

Spain granted the Netherlands independence.

[Greymane]

Spain granted the Netherlands independence.

That was because the Spanish kings did not want to invest time and money to squash a rebellion so far from home
A situation like that is not likely to happen in Catalunya, in the first place because it's not far from home...
That said, if Catalunya wants to be independent (and I've heard nothing else about them for years), why try to keep them part of Spain?
If the government let's this fester for much longer, the Catalans may even revolt. Especially when they feel that their voices are not heard, which is obviously the case.

I wonder why Spain is so desperately trying to hold Catalonia despite both are future provinces of Brussels...

But in all seriousness, that may even be the case in 10/20 years...

[hellheaven1987]

People have freedom to leave even there is no oppression.

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Yeah its like Texas here in the US....some loonies want to secede or w/e but it aint gonna happen lol

[Phalanx300]

Yeah its like Texas here in the US....some loonies want to secede or w/e but it aint gonna happen lol

People said the same about the Scottish and look where we are now. And isn't international law allowing nations to have a independant states?

[nemgod]

People said the same about the Scottish and look where we are now. And isn't international law allowing nations to have a independant states?

Actually it isn't like that. There were 2 international laws on the subject. One does call for self determination but it was quite clear in that it was meant for over seas areas (Like African and Carribean areas under British control.) not on the countries mainland.

Then came another treaty which basically puts territorial integrity as a focal point. Which means that if an area of the countries mainland does want to break off it does need the consent of the countries government.

[Lazzeer]

Actually it isn't like that. There were 2 international laws on the subject. One does call for self determination but it was quite clear in that it was meant for over seas areas (Like African and Carribean areas under British control.) not on the countries mainland.

Then came another treaty which basically puts territorial integrity as a focal point. Which means that if an area of the countries mainland does want to break off it does need the consent of the countries government.

Boom. This.

The problem Spain faces is that attempting to deny Catalonia a vote it seems to make Catalonians want independence more.


Simultaneously exactly how is Madrid going to stop the vote? Are they going to deploy troops? Are they going to arrest Mas? Because I doubt any of these actions would endear them to the Catalonian people.

[sleepyx732]

Yeah its like Texas here in the US....some loonies want to secede or w/e but it aint gonna happen lol

You go on as if somebody has the right to own the people of Texas. Your little statement contradicts what this country was 'suppose' to stand for. At least according to my 5th grade history class anyway.

[madrush]

I'm not speaking out against Spain but its not what the country wants its what the people want, if the Catalan people cry for freedom, let them vote for it. As you may know my country Scotland is going into a vote for seperation from the union in September of this year. Let them vote and act peacefully, else it could into a mess like Ukraine did

[Poach]

Under Spanish law no legal referendum can take place without the agreement of the Madrid Government, which has repeatedly refused permission. Catalonia claims the referendum is 'non-binding' and thus entirely legal: it's nothing more than an opinion poll the likes of which newspapers, websites and magazines conduct all the time without asking Madrid's permission. Obviously, while on a technicality this might be the truth, Madrid vows to prevent the poll taking place because they fear (rightly so) that it will become de facto official, even if by the books it isn't.

[knight of meh]

Interesting to see how this will end because i know self determination isn't guaranteed to the autonomous communities by the Spanish constitution

[YukonTrooper]

Well, I'm sure those words will make Catalans less enthused about independence, Mr. Prime Minister.