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Thread: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    He/she can be promoted back once he/she active. If he/she is in active I don't think he/she will care about what rank he/she is anyway. From my point of view it's just an incentive for people to be active and productive for the site.
    I don't think most people here would accept this.

    For new members it should be Citizens first as we all do and if he/she proves to be contributing still to the site and not simply vanish after receiving the citizenship then after 12 months is passed he/she can be promoted to Patrician. Patrician should not be something that can be applied. Normal citizenship (Peb or Equestrian, whatever name choose) is one that can be applied as currently done.
    But the whole point of this draft is to figure out a way to make citizenship more easily accessible, so that you don't need a ton of contributions before you can get engaged in the Curia. Also, many members are ready for the highest rank right now. To submit them through a 12 month tutelage would only generate lack of interest.

    I don't agree. Only active citizens with good standings and continuously co0ntributing should be promoted to Patrician. I don't see it as new enfranchised (whatever it means) lower citizenship rank but creating or reintroducing a higher rank (Patrician) to existing citizens to them them for keeping active and contributing towards the site.
    Enfranchised means to give them voting rights. The point of this draft is not to create an even more elitist rank, but to keep the current high rank and create a lower rank, through which many more people can access the Curia. No citizen wants to see his rank stripped because he has gotten busy with real life. So I think most people would be really hostile to this idea.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Except citizenship is given for contribution to this site. Why would I care to vote in elections that has no bearing on why I am here in the first place? Why should I vote for a magistrate? If all I do is modding the role of the magistrate is meaningless to me. Why should I vote in CdeC elections if it si the same recycled people running for those positions? Am I supposed to track down the performance and see if they are doing their jobs right? So fact that these things have no relevance to me, I lose my recognition for my contributions? Curial affairs should be something I voluntarily participate not force.

    Some people need to realize that playing government isn;t why they are here. They are here to mod. TWC provides a great platform in which to create, discuss and share their mods. BTW, this just doesn;t pertain to modders either. There are plenty of Civitates who spend a great deal of time debating political issues of the day, but have "zero" interest in playing government. Why should they be forced to particpate and lose their badge of recognition.

    Oh please do not say they are STILL citizens. It has been abundantly clear that the "higher" rank signifies a significant level of contribution. By reducing the rank, you are essentially erasing that recognition.
    I don't honestly know what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    I don't think most people here would accept this.
    Why not ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    But the whole point of this draft is to figure out a way to make citizenship more easily accessible, so that you don't need a ton of contributions before you can get engaged in the Curia. Also, many members are ready for the highest rank right now. To submit them through a 12 month tutelage would only generate lack of interest.
    You're looking for a quick fix. I'm looking for long term solution, being here for more than 7 years already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    Enfranchised means to give them voting rights. The point of this draft is not to create an even more elitist rank, but to keep the current high rank and create a lower rank, through which many more people can access the Curia. No citizen wants to see his rank stripped because he has gotten busy with real life. So I think most people would be really hostile to this idea.
    So you want to lower the value of citizenship ? Never though I'd live to see the day. So sad.
    Last edited by AngryTitusPullo; February 26, 2014 at 10:35 PM.


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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    I have to say now, if patrician is renamed senator, then plebeian should be renamed Quaestor or something similar if we follow the Roman rankings.

    Spoiler for Section III Article I
    Citizens

    TWC has a two-tier citizenship system consisting of Plebeians and Patricians. While both are considered citizens, they are of differing tiers, as explained below.


    Plebeians

    All
    contributing members of Total War Center have the opportunity to become Plebeians. To qualify for Plebeian, a member must have at least fifty posts, been a registered member for two months, and have no warnings. If a member has been warned, the member must have gone six consecutive months without a further warning. An applicant for Plebeian is expected to have a history of good behavior and demonstrated involvement in the community.

    If a member meets these requirements, he may post an application thread in the CVRIA's [Insert Name of Subforum].
    After two days have passed the Curator adds a Poll lasting for ten days. If the nominee achieves sixty per cent of the non-abstaining votes, he will become a Plebeian.

    Plebeians are selected by the Citizens of TWC. All Citizens, both Plebeians and Patricians, can post and vote in application threads.

    All Plebeians have the rights associated with Peregrinus, but in addition may post within the Curia, subject to the procedures in Section II.



    CitizensPatricians

    Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen Patrician of the Forum as per Article 2 below. Once a member becomes a Citizen Patrician, they can then choose between 3 different badges. Artifex, designed for those who are modders, Civitate, designed for those who have contributed to the debating side of the Site, whether in TW or non-TW, and CitizenPatrician, for those who associate with both.

    To qualify for CitizenPatrician, a member must have at least fifty posts, been a registered member for two months, and have no warnings. If a member has been warned, the member must have gone six consecutive months without a further warning.

    All CitizensPatricians have the rights associated with Peregrinus, but in addition may post within the Curia, subject to the procedures in Section II; may post with the Symposium and may patronise other members as per Article II.

    To me, the wording in part of Article III Section I seems insufficient to me. Plebeians are just anybody who the Curia voted for, they are people who contributed in a lesser extent to the site and show potential for further contributions. That is why we should include "contributing" in there (from "all members of TWC have the opportunity to become plebeians" to "all contributing members of Total War Center have the opportunity to become plebeians.). The role isn't for everybody, it is for anyone who contributes to the site.

    Another thing, is a plebeian who was successfully patronized to a patrician still a plebeian as well as a patrician? Personally, as two different ranks of citizen, I think members would indeed hold both ranks even if a plebeian is an easier-to-acquire rank to post and vote in the Curia that cannot run for Curial offices. So in my opinion any patrician who is also currently a plebeian could display either badge (if plebeians have one).
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    You're looking for a quick fix. I'm looking for long term solution, being here for more than 7 years already.

    So you want to lower the value of citizenship ? Never though I'd live to see the day. So sad.
    I hope you don't misunderstand me. I most certainly do not wish to lower the value of citizenship. That's why regarding the ranks of current citizens I am keeping everything the same. All we are doing is creating a lower citizen class. We're not changing the higher citizen class (the class we have right now), because of potential hostility toward any such changes. Basically, current citizens will not at all be affected by these changes. Their status will remain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila Praefortis View Post
    I have to say now, if patrician is renamed senator, then plebeian should be renamed Quaestor or something similar if we follow the Roman rankings.

    Spoiler for Section III Article I
    Citizens

    TWC has a two-tier citizenship system consisting of Plebeians and Patricians. While both are considered citizens, they are of differing tiers, as explained below.


    Plebeians

    All
    contributing members of Total War Center have the opportunity to become Plebeians. To qualify for Plebeian, a member must have at least fifty posts, been a registered member for two months, and have no warnings. If a member has been warned, the member must have gone six consecutive months without a further warning. An applicant for Plebeian is expected to have a history of good behavior and demonstrated involvement in the community.

    If a member meets these requirements, he may post an application thread in the CVRIA's [Insert Name of Subforum].
    After two days have passed the Curator adds a Poll lasting for ten days. If the nominee achieves sixty per cent of the non-abstaining votes, he will become a Plebeian.

    Plebeians are selected by the Citizens of TWC. All Citizens, both Plebeians and Patricians, can post and vote in application threads.

    All Plebeians have the rights associated with Peregrinus, but in addition may post within the Curia, subject to the procedures in Section II.



    CitizensPatricians

    Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen Patrician of the Forum as per Article 2 below. Once a member becomes a Citizen Patrician, they can then choose between 3 different badges. Artifex, designed for those who are modders, Civitate, designed for those who have contributed to the debating side of the Site, whether in TW or non-TW, and CitizenPatrician, for those who associate with both.

    To qualify for CitizenPatrician, a member must have at least fifty posts, been a registered member for two months, and have no warnings. If a member has been warned, the member must have gone six consecutive months without a further warning.

    All CitizensPatricians have the rights associated with Peregrinus, but in addition may post within the Curia, subject to the procedures in Section II; may post with the Symposium and may patronise other members as per Article II.

    To me, the wording in part of Article III Section I seems insufficient to me. Plebeians are just anybody who the Curia voted for, they are people who contributed in a lesser extent to the site and show potential for further contributions. That is why we should include "contributing" in there (from "all members of TWC have the opportunity to become plebeians" to "all contributing members of Total War Center have the opportunity to become plebeians.). The role isn't for everybody, it is for anyone who contributes to the site.

    Another thing, is a plebeian who was successfully patronized to a patrician still a plebeian as well as a patrician? Personally, as two different ranks of citizen, I think members would indeed hold both ranks even if a plebeian is an easier-to-acquire rank to post and vote in the Curia that cannot run for Curial offices. So in my opinion any patrician who is also currently a plebeian could display either badge (if plebeians have one).
    That is a good idea. I have changed the OP to reflect your addition to Section 3 Article 1.

    Concerning the idea of high-citizens holding both ranks, I'm not sure. I would love to hear others' opinion on this matter, though.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    I hope you don't misunderstand me. I most certainly do not wish to lower the value of citizenship. That's why regarding the ranks of current citizens I am keeping everything the same. All we are doing is creating a lower citizen class. We're not changing the higher citizen class (the class we have right now), because of potential hostility toward any such changes. Basically, current citizens will not at all be affected by these changes. Their status will remain.
    I think this issues with CdeC etc is because the differences in evaluating what 'contribution' to the site is seen between then and now.

    From modding point of view, a modder who release a single mod file which changes a single line which greatly impact the game and downloaded by a single person. Is he contributing to the site ?

    I thing some of the older citizens already mentioned that they don't think they will pass the vote with the current threshold of what contribution is. I guess I agree with that. I don't think I will pass too.

    From my point of view reintroducing Patrician class is not because making one group is more elite that the other but simply rewards for continuous contribution after gaining the citizenship. Also to ensure to the citizens (that care) to uphold the TOS befitting the citizenship status.


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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    From my point of view reintroducing Patrician class is not because making one group is more elite that the other but simply rewards for continuous contribution after gaining the citizenship. Also to ensure to the citizens (that care) to uphold the TOS befitting the citizenship status.
    But won't the value of citizenship all together fall after the reintroduction of such a class?
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Armenum View Post
    But won't the value of citizenship all together fall after the reintroduction of such a class?
    Why should it be ?


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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    Why not ?
    Aikanar (i.e.) left us like a year ago. I would like to see his face when he returns. (something like this, probably )
    Last edited by mishkin; February 27, 2014 at 06:40 AM.
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  9. #69
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    So? He's still a citizen right? Unless he's ostrakoned somewhere along the line.


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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    Why should it be ?
    Well, it will be much easier to become just a citizen than before.
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    no, it will be just as obtusely hard as before. The lower tier will be completely new, not a continuation of current citizenship.
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    no, it will be just as obtusely hard as before. The lower tier will be completely new, not a continuation of current citizenship.
    Hence, I believe the lower tier should not be considered citizenship but some status between citizenship and regular member. Like an elevated member status. This helps keep the nature of exclusivity of the citizen rank.
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Armenum View Post
    Well, it will be much easier to become just a citizen than before.
    Whether it's easy or not got nothing to do with Patrician in anyway. That's more towards disbanding CdeC discussions.


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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Armenum View Post
    Hence, I believe the lower tier should not be considered citizenship but some status between citizenship and regular member. Like an elevated member status. This helps keep the nature of exclusivity of the citizen rank.
    Technically, the citizen rank would still be exclusive. It's all a matter of naming, really. Whether we call it this or that, there will be a high-rank and a low-rank. Nevertheless, both ranks are official members of the Curia, possessing voting rights. Hence, calling them both citizens seems natural. This is why I like the idea of calling the high-rank "Senators," since senators even in Rome were an elevated citizen.

    Thus I propose the following naming scheme:
    -Senator/Senators: the senate was the aristocratic branch of Roman government; senator, etymologically speaking, is related to the word "senior"
    -Eques/Equites: a Roman class lower than senators but nevertheless citizens; they were knights who, unlike senators, could engage in business

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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Armenum View Post
    keep the nature of exclusivity of the citizen rank.
    Why would anyone want that?
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  16. #76

    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    Technically, the citizen rank would still be exclusive. It's all a matter of naming, really. Whether we call it this or that, there will be a high-rank and a low-rank. Nevertheless, both ranks are official members of the Curia, possessing voting rights. Hence, calling them both citizens seems natural. This is why I like the idea of calling the high-rank "Senators," since senators even in Rome were an elevated citizen.

    Thus I propose the following naming scheme:
    -Senator/Senators: the senate was the aristocratic branch of Roman government; senator, etymologically speaking, is related to the word "senior"
    -Eques/Equites: a Roman class lower than senators but nevertheless citizens; they were knights who, unlike senators, could engage in business
    I also like the naming scheme of 'Senator' for the high ranking citizens. I guess I see your point, since both groups would be part of the Curia, both would be citizens. 'Eques' is an option for the low ranking group, I think we should form a consensus on the name for the lower ranked citizens.

    In the end, would Senators have an exclusive section in the forum? I am also assuming that only Senators would be able to propose legislation in the Curia.
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Why would anyone want that?
    It is not easy to explain. I guess it's even embarrassing
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Armenum View Post
    I also like the naming scheme of 'Senator' for the high ranking citizens. I guess I see your point, since both groups would be part of the Curia, both would be citizens. 'Eques' is an option for the low ranking group, I think we should form a consensus on the name for the lower ranked citizens.

    In the end, would Senators have an exclusive section in the forum? I am also assuming that only Senators would be able to propose legislation in the Curia.
    I should reaffirm this: this whole idea was initiated in order to generate Curial activity and make the Curia more accessible and relevant to the site as a whole. Therefore, when it comes to voting, proposing, posting, Equites would have the same rights as Senators. The only difference is that Equites cannot become CdeC, magistrate, or curator.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    I should reaffirm this: this whole idea was initiated in order to generate Curial activity and make the Curia more accessible and relevant to the site as a whole. Therefore, when it comes to voting, proposing, posting, Equites would have the same rights as Senators. The only difference is that Equites cannot become CdeC, magistrate, or curator.
    I see. That makes sense. Though, I would advocate for some more privileges to be given to Senators in order to give incentive to the Equites, to become Senators.
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    Default Re: Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    If CdeC is disbanded, then both plebs and patricians would be elected by the citizenry, indeed. I mean, if CdeC is abolished, we'll be left with a pretty similar situation to now: it will still be pretty difficult for many a member to become citizen. Hence, the proposal would still be valid.
    There could be potential problem if the Consilium de Civitate is dissolved. Several people who want the CdeC disbanded want this to happen because they feel the CdeC puts much higher standards for current citizen applications. If the Consilium de Civitate is abolished, logically these people want citizens to vote with lower standards in mind. Then every time citizens lower the standard for what we think of as a higher-tiered citizens (senators or patricians) the purpose of our lower-tiered citizen rank would become less relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    Concerning the idea of high-citizens holding both ranks, I'm not sure. I would love to hear others' opinion on this matter, though.
    I was actually only thinking of higher citizens who were lower citizens before becoming higher citizens.

    I suppose it depends on our stance of how a patrician/senator is like compared to a plebeian/equite/quaestor/x. They could be distinct ranks and identities as two different tiers of citizens. But it could be sort of like how the Content Staff "ranks" are. What I mean by that is we have Content Staff and Content Directors. Content Directors are also Content Staff, but I do not think they can show themselves as one. Plus we all know they are Content Staff anyway, but knowing they are the rank of Content Director is more relevant to our understanding of what they do for the site. I am fine with both higher citizens both ranks or only holding the higher rank.
    Last edited by pacifism; February 27, 2014 at 07:07 PM.
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