Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

[Inkie]

What about Equestrian? ()

Not saying I support this proposal, but you guys might find it useful. It also avoids the added pain of the word pleb in posts like these:

your underestimating the power the plebs are going to have, they will hold the majority of the voting power when it come to elections patricians are going to try and appease the masses to get elected. So no i don't think standards will rise too high cause the plebs wouldn't for high standards

[Lord William]

I really like the term pleb, its quite fitting

[Inkie]

I'm...just gonna ignore that and get on out of here.

[Ishan]

I really like the term pleb, its quite fitting

[pacifism]

On moderators: the Constitution says that citizens can be Moderators, and I would say plebeians are citizens. So unless we change that part of the Constitution, plebeians can become a Moderator.

On the name plebeian: I have no problem with it, and I think it is fitting. Historically, plebeians were citizens with less privileges than patricians. Plebeians at first couldn't be priests and there were few magistrates who were plebeians before the second century B.C. There was a clear distinction between patricians and plebeians, but it would be similar to what we have here. Peregrinus are non citizens, plebeians are usually lower-class citizens, and patricians higher-class citizens. This would apply not only ancient Rome, but also TWCenter. Do any of you have a better, more fitting, name?

The challenge is to put into words requirements that are both vague yet also specific enough. This is why I chose the phrase, "involvement in the community." I would leave it up to citizens to interpret this phrase and decide on the standard for Pleb, so to speak. Compare it with the current reqs for citizenship, about which nothing at all is said in the current constitution (except for the standard no infraction stuff). However, if you have any suggestions for a better wording, please do share it.

I suppose a +60% majority of current citizens (who would be patricians) would determine the first people to become plebeians. Which would ensure we can filter people out who the patricians, and later patricians as well as plebeians, do not think should be able to vote on offices (of Curator, Magistrate, or CdeC) and post in the Curia. With this in mind I am now more sure than before we can filter in desired people as plebeians who are fit for the role.

[Prince Regent George]

And what jim said about the word "pleb," I agree. It's not really the best choice of words. Does anyone have a good alternative?

How about satraps (replacing the patricians) and magnates (replacing the plebeians and not the plebs, as some members horribly and malevolently seem to misspell them). We are sick with the Roman/Greek theme!

And your proposal, Adamat, is inevitably going to fail, I am afraid, for this simple reason:

If the nominee achieves sixty per cent of the non-abstaining votes, he will become a Plebeian.

The above procedure demands so sophisticated, mathematical skills, that nobody will be able to handle the elections appropriately.

So, as a counter-proposal. I suggest abolishing the Curia.
After all, it's just a sect exclusively concentrating all her efforts on how she will offer shiny badges to herself more prestigeously and efficiently.
The citizens (wannabes) should be compenstated with a glorious badge, accompanied with nothing more than its gloriousness.

[Inkie]

I was serious about Equestrian. I think pleb is bad for two reasons, namely because in modern, general usage it's simply derogatory, and also because in TWC culture it has come to be used in the same way...as a deliberate pejorative for 'peregrinus'. Going with 'pleb' brings with it the confusion of trying to overwrite an already existing usage of the word, as well as the derogatory connotation that I don't think everyone would be as happy as you to ignore, particularly given that not everyone gives a rat's ass about historical connotations.

[Makrell]

Perhaps calling them citizens and senators. After all editing the entire constitution should not be a bad thing to do when one wants change.

[ElvenKind]

I really like the term pleb, its quite fitting

I really have to repeat myself do I?

because plebeians are inferior

Coming from one of CDeC members.

[Inarus]

Problem is Equestrian is too similar to Patricians, I must say I expected at first Citizens to refer to the Plebeians. The simple fact is that no matter how you refer to them, there will be some who view the top end as elite, it is evidently inescapable. Mercifully the majority have hardly heard of the Curia because they busy themselves with their own work and so when you confront them with offers of patronisation they'll be honoured at the thought of a pwetty badge and the knowledge that someone recognised their toils. It's no wonder they get here, read the petty squabbles of those of respectable behaviour and realise the greater merits of staying out of the :wubs:storm.

[Diamat]

I don't think the name necessarily has to match Roman history exactly. Whatever sounds good, I guess. Plebeian is derogatory today, Inkie is correct. Proletarii would be negative as well (thank you Marx). I would be cool with Equestrian or something completely different. It doesn't have to match Roman history...it just has to sound nice.

[PikeStance]

because plebeians are inferior

This has nothing to do with the CdeC, I am a Citizen of TWC which entitles me to propose proposals and also me to vote any way I please.
plebs will be "citizens" but they will not be held to the same rigorous standards of a patrician, so no they aren't the same.
Moderation and the Hex decide who gets hired in accordance to the constitution, now hex has the authority to veto the bill but if they don't moderation staff will have to follow the constitution while hiring

its a continuation your points accumulate the good and the bad

I really like the term pleb, its quite fitting

If your goal is to derail Diamat's plan, then you are doing a great job.

I don't think the name necessarily has to match Roman history exactly. Whatever sounds good, I guess. Plebeian is derogatory today, Inkie is correct. Proletarii would be negative as well (thank you Marx). I would be cool with Equestrian or something completely different. It doesn't have to match Roman history...it just has to sound nice.

Plebeians were not "lower classes" they were the "common" people of Rome. The Patricians were the wealthy political elites. However, the modern usage of the word plebeian (or pleb) is a derogatory and it does not sound like you are being recognized for your contribution.

[Lord William]

Do you even know the purpose of the proposal? Cause I have my doubts

[PikeStance]

Do you even know the purpose of the proposal? Cause I have my doubts

Sorry, I have no interest in exchanging unpleasantness with you.

[Lord William]

You are forgiven

[PikeStance]

You are forgiven

LOL

[AngryTitusPullo]

CitizensPatricians

Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen Patrician of the Forum as per Article 2 below. Once a member becomes a Citizen Patrician, they can then choose between 3 different badges. Artifex, designed for those who are modders, Civitate, designed for those who have contributed to the debating side of the Site, whether in TW or non-TW, and CitizenPatrician, for those who associate with both.

To qualify for CitizenPatrician, a member must have at least fifty posts, been a registered member for two months, and have no warnings. If a member has been warned, the member must have gone six consecutive months without a further warning.

All Citizens Patricians have the rights associated with Peregrinus, but in addition may post within the Curia, subject to the procedures in Section II; may post with the Symposium and may patronise other members as per Article II.

Too low and no difference from lower class citizen.

Must be 1 year a plebian with good standing (no referral. no infraction). 50 posts ? Make it 500. A Patrician who is not active within 12 months will be downgraded back to Plebian.

[Armenum]

Perhaps calling them citizens and senators. After all editing the entire constitution should not be a bad thing to do when one wants change.

I think that would be a better naming scheme. More clear.

And the current citizens...I'm assuming they would automatically be in the first tier? (Patricians)

[mishkin]

A Patrician who is not active within 12 months will be downgraded back to Plebian.

I understand this is to promote participation, but it seems unfair. An Opifex (or a great debater or whatever) retired for a year would have to go through bureaucracy again?

[AngryTitusPullo]

Nope. Opifex is given for above average contribution and it stays there as the like of Novus, Divus etc. It's just the Citizen and Patrician group can can be promoted/demoted.