new lore versus old lore versus canon lore versus fan of this game lore

[starwars90001]

okay this thread will being talking about things in this lore versus old, canon, and your lore. this thread will be comparing the story this to all the others, and seeing what is better in what it does, for example maybe you think ganon in this lore is better than his canon version, maybe you hate this version of princess zelda, or maybe there are characters that were in neph's old lore that were taken out or characters from canon that you like to see put in.

you can also talk about the story in full here, so spoilers. also old lore is everything neph did before this game, because this game is a redo of his lore, so fallen sage, gerudo wars, tmie's menagerie.


I guess I start by talking about the ganon arc because that's finish, well while this is first ganon is shown in neph's this new version is probably the best version of ganon, ganon while doing some very evil really meant to do good in the end,and not just for his people but for everyone. you don' know how much I hate the evil villain that does evil and than tires to justify their actions,in this ganon meant to help everyone from the beginning. he only did that horrible stuff because of demise and his people's hate for hylians, if there had been another way to make peace with hyrule ganon would take it, but he would been remove from power by demise.


I guess another for comparing is this arc versus the original back story, now the back story went that ganon invaded hyrule and got the triforce of power, when he capture zelda she broke the triforce of wisdom and scatter it around the land, ganon with bango's help poison the greudo, took over hyrule,gain followers from different races like the darknuts and wizrrobe, and search for the last piece of the triforce. this when a young boy by the name of link came, he gather the pieces of the triforce of wisdom, gather an army of knights, free zelda and beat ganon, and this is why later on people call link the hero of time.


now the arc changes allot, most is for the better other parts not so much, for what I like is that this arc shows hyrule isn't the good guys and it shows zelda as a powerful woman, but one thing that I don't agree with is the removal of link, this could have could have been use to add to the whole grey vs grey thing, he could been shown to be compare to ganon, link could have been the hero that only does good to get gory, other than that the ganon arc was great and I like to see what's next.

[VictorAYorke]

I'd have to contest your last point (Link as antihero). The grey vs grey approach Neph used in the Historia Missions is very well done, partially because we keep swapping between the characters and see both their justifiable aims and their moral failings. Any darker version of link would have to compare the good that forms his motivation with the evil he inadvertently causes along the way (just as it did for Ganon and Zelda).

However because Link is a more personal operative than the other two, he'd have to be either painfully oblivious to the harm he causes (appearing quite utterly moronic) or somehow revel in it (leading to either an pitiless, ambitious murderer or someone who Just Wants to Watch the World Burn). Both of which are quite contrary to the whole point of Link as a character (both his traits and what he represents).

It might just be, however, that I'm recoiling from the idea the same way I do from the various "Pokémon is about kidnapping various innocent creatures and forcing them to participate in pit fights" reimaginings; if this were the concept behind the original game series, it'd be morally bankrupt and sadistic as an experience, as opposed to fun or interesting to play.

[Apani]

As I've said in Announcements I find Groose to be a very worthy character (my favourite from SS) with a healthy growth and funny, original and charming mannerism. He also was one of the only characters in LoZ to ever take initiative rather than wait for Link saving the world. Despite being a silly jerk, he's also shown a great deal of intelligence with his invention of the catapult.

I think he could a very good addition to HTW despite Neph's prejudices against comedic relieves: He could be the total opposite of Lnk in every aspect:

Here follows some late game spoilers:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

whereas Link is grown as a paladin by Hylia who however chooses Zelda over Hylia, Groose could be a common Hylian or a noble (to give him a big ego) who falls in love with Hylia and joins the Wizzrobes around the same time Link is serving them. Maybe he could have better political or strategical skills compared to Link being a good field commander, which he could use to help Hylia to estabilish a foothold in Hyrule. Of course, since commanders get more glory than politicians, and Groose is a very egocentric fellow, he'd be jealous of the favoured Link and maybe screw things up for Link by trying to fight on the field with him: being Link a pinball protagonist, this would be a factor that pushes him to side with Zelda. As for Groose, he'd be tragically killed upon Hylia's defeat trying to protect her, or maybe survive to the final mission and kill Majora with the Groosenator. Because that'd be awesome.

As for the Pig, I really loved HTW Ganon, he felt like the best built character. Shortly, he felt his duty to be good because of what his mother told him, but since he's a Moblin, he tried to achieve it in a very brutal and "all or nothing" manner.

Anyways, on the subject of Link: he seems to be quite obvious to evil: with all the monsters he kills without flinching (in T'sM he outright sneaks into the palace of Hyrule and kills a lot of guards), and let's not speak about breaking into people's homes and smashing their pottery. Neph seems to hint at this as well:

Link will probably think he's a white knight doing what's best.

[starwars90001]

one thing about the new lore I like is that it shows everyone as bad guys, well not everyone, I don't neph get's this but forest races are the good guys,they don't do anything horrible to anyone, their not racist, and they work together, so if there is some factions that are good, it's the kokiri, deku, and hukskst. I guess you can say this game is half grey vs grey and half good vs evil, which is not bad, having a story in which everyone is grey or dark kinda makes not care for anyone.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

If we're going to get into faction morality, this was already covered in a previous thread.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post12706340

[Apani]

Even Neph admits some race are nearly white, but the Deku really aren't. They have a story of aggressions against other races, so they're not going to win the best neightbour medal.
The Huskus have been secluded in their woods for a very long time for fear of being exterminated (save for some mercenaries), I don't know why, but they'd rather hide than fight if they can.
The Kokiri are pretty much good, I guess...

[starwars90001]

one thing that problem me about the old lore was everyone was an , when playing and watching a let's play of fallen sage I hated most of the characters, when watching an let's of the game the guy said these are horrible people, case ad point one part of the game saria was going to die to save everyone and zelda the V response to that is " I'm okay with that" other is when salfoss is angry over his dead kid and the general character tells him to get over it.
this kinda continues into the next game but for the most part is drop. if anyone knows what the characters in the geudo wars are like I like to hear, butI hope this new lore changes that mean spirit of the old lore.

[tf_]

H:TW has definitely made me reconsider the morality of the games, in some ways. I played OoT recently and Ganondorf is referred to as evil several times with no justification. Granted, he does do some evil things (blocking off Dodongo's Cavern, infesting the Great Deku Tree with Gohma), but you could argue he was doing it for his people.

On the subject of OoT, couldn't most of the problems you're trying to fix in OoT have been avoided if Link did (almost) nothing? Ganon wouldn't have got the Triforce if Link hadn't gathered the stones. He could still have unblocked Dodongo's Cavern and healed Jabu-Jabu, and then that would be pretty much it.


I don't know much about Nephcanon, so the game's AI has influenced my opinion of most factions. I now have a clear dislike for the KoH, Ordona, the Kokiri, and the Gorons because of how they've acted in the campaign.

[VictorAYorke]

H:TW has definitely made me reconsider the morality of the games, in some ways. I played OoT recently and Ganondorf is referred to as evil several times with no justification. Granted, he does do some evil things (blocking off Dodongo's Cavern, infesting the Great Deku Tree with Gohma), but you could argue he was doing it for his people.

On the subject of OoT, couldn't most of the problems you're trying to fix in OoT have been avoided if Link did (almost) nothing? Ganon wouldn't have got the Triforce if Link hadn't gathered the stones. He could still have unblocked Dodongo's Cavern and healed Jabu-Jabu, and then that would be pretty much it.


I don't know much about Nephcanon, so the game's AI has influenced my opinion of most factions. I now have a clear dislike for the KoH, Ordona, the Kokiri, and the Gorons because of how they've acted in the campaign.

Ganondorf in OoT is the properly designated villain, doing the actions required of the story's villain without such things as motivation to get in the way. In fact, he seems to operate purely for his own personal gains and lets the Gerudo carry on with their lives without him, so he hasn't that justification. He seems to have woken up one morning and decided to take the Triforce.

Or is Link's purpose plot-wise to take the stones before Ganondorf can? If he could starve out the Gorons until he gets Din's Ruby, and exchange Ruto as a hostage for Nayru's Sapphire, he has two of the stones without exerting much effort. Waiting for the Deku Tree to die then mopping up the Ghoma after would be a fairly simple exercise, then he has the three stones. What's more, then there isn't the conveniently placed hero with three dungeons under his belt...

[tedster1995]

That's true, the only evil Ganon did was harm the innocent for his own selfish desires. Plus I always thought that Ganondorf was just being manipulated by his insane mothers, also known as Twinrova whom I wish was given more backstory, I could easily see them as power hungry witches who are willing to manipulate their own "son" to get said power.

Which is why I like this mod, seeimgly unimportant characters like Bongo-Bongo, are given more backstory and motives for their actions. Because currently their are only a handful of characters which are truly evil, with Veran I think being the worst. Considering she slaughtered tonnes of Gerudo and Zora, just to get her hands on the Triforce so that she could be Queen. Once she failed at that she places an entire civilisation under her thumb and kills anyone who refuses her. I believe that's true evil, killing simply because they want power, at Ganon did it for his people in this lore and OOT, Veran is just greedy and selfish.

[tf_]

That's true, the only evil Ganon did was harm the innocent for his own selfish desires.

I meant that he's described as 'evil' before there's any obvious reason for it.

I might be partly basing the idea of Ganon doing it for the Gerudo on something he says in WW about his people living in a 'harsh desert' or something.

Also, what does power even mean in this case? Personal power, as in making him stronger himself? It's not really ruling power or anything, since he doesn't really rule Hyrule in OoT, he's pretty much destroyed the kingdom. Castle Town is in ruins, and he doesn't seem to have control over Kakariko Village. There's hardly anything in his castle other than him, just a few enemies, and outside of the castle there are some loosely-affiliated enemies and bosses in the dungeons. Some probably aren't affiliated with him, they're just hostile in nature (Keese and Beamos, for example).

[starwars90001]

yeah, ganondorf is a villain, he probably did want to give hyrule to the gerudo but the problem with that is he wanted power, think about what when he takes hyrule, does he give it to the gerudo, no, I think people don't get what ganondorf wanted, he hated living in gerudo and saw hyrule as heaven compare to his home. after he takes the triforce of power, he send hyrule into an era of chaos and gerudo want nothing to do with that.

in this game ganondorf does want the triforce at all and just wants his people to survive.which makes him a better character.

[Godot]

In OoT, he's the definite ruler of Hyrule by virtue of force alone. And I don't think he finds Kakariko worthy of attention. The town is no threat whatsoever. On the other hand, he threw Talon out of Lon Lon Ranch for being a lazy and made Ingo the owner instead. Most of his rule seems to concern various monsters and using them to punish the races that refused to hand over the spiritual stones. The only boss in OoT I can't see allied with him is Bongo Bongo, as he's some kinda horror from the underworld.

Fun fact: Ganondorf in OoT was supposed to be more of an "honourable tyrant" like Raoh, but those qualities didn't end up showing very well.

[Brihentin13]

Yes, if I recall, Ganondorf just kind of let Bongo Bongo out of its cage and walked off. He was just really trolling Link at that point so that he couldn't help the Shadow Sage.

U mad Hyrule?

Ganondorf's grab for power in OoT is somewhat confusing, because after he gets it, he doesn't really do anything with it but destroy some stuff and punish the people that wouldn't help him gain said power. What even was his goal? He obviously didn't end up helping the Gerudo out at all, so why else would he want the power? He had only a few monsters as followers, so he certainly didn't become a real king. He was the head honcho alright, but that was just because everyone else was dead or in hiding. He didn't seem to partake in the deadly sins of hedonism or building a harem of slave women. Hell, if he had wanted a harem, he could have just stayed in the desert and enjoyed the company of a whole race of women that would probably want him, due to him being their king and the only available man.

He just sorta sat up in his floating castle of doom, twiddling his thumbs. I mean, power is typically a means, not an end. What did he even want? Was he just such a jerk that he was content with just messing up everyone's lives? Was he one of those guys who just wanted to watch the world burn? Wind Waker did add that line about helping his people, but he clearly never did that, so we're left with a guy who is apparently just a total ass.

[Godot]

Did you forget all about the triforce? That's like, the entire reason he does anything. There's plenty of time to rule the world after you become a god.

[Lortano]

Ganon had a big problem. He had the Triforce of Power, but Wisdom had fled with Zelda and of Courage he probably didn't know when he would come back. He could never be truly secure, so his plan to use Courage to foce Wisdom out of hiding was a sensible idea. However the one flaw in the plan was that he didn't surround the Temple of Time with his entire army and have Link brought before him in chains. He almost had it though.

[Brihentin13]

I doubt Link would have surrendered even then. He is the wielder of "Courage" after all. Link would have been brought before Ganondorf as a corpse most likely. And that is true, he had only one piece. Why did the Triforce split up like that? Did Ganon touch it and the the goddesses just went "nope"? Or did each party have their respective piece the whole time and not know it yet? The attempt to execute Ganondorf at the Arbiter Grounds displayed in Twilight Princess shows him using his blessing of Power, and that would be without him ever entering the Sacred Realm!

[starwars90001]

I'm going to have to explain somethings, first one must have a balance of courage, wisdom, and power to get the triforce, ganondorf only had power, if link touch the triforce he would only get courage(this is only for certain link, the link in skyward sword has a balance heart). and when link was return to the past, link became the hero of time and was given the triforce of courage by the goddesses, this split triforce and the other pieces went to their holders, that's why ganonorf got after oot.

now in this game I'm not sure if the triforce does the same thing, but in the old lore when someone wish on the triforce it broke apart.

[Jakeford]

Why does everyone here keep saying he only had a few monsters? He had an entire army! 5 dungeons filled to the brim with monsters.

[Dark Mewtwo]

what if Ganondorf sent: Gohma, King Dodongo, Barinade, Phantom Ganon, Volvagia, Morpha, Bongo Bongo and Twinrova at Link at the same time? or better yet what if he put the boss key IN the boss room (Er mah gerd this is my 100th post )