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  1. #1

    Default Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    I have been playing Total War games for awhile now and I am still to this day do not quite understand unit stats, and how they effect combat.

    My questions pertain to:

    1) Armor upgrades. In game they display a +1 armor value for all tiers (if I remember correctly), so a leather armor upgrade on appropriate unit = +1 armor value, and a partial plate upgrade = +1 armor value. I have read in old Total War forums that this is not correct and that the displayed value is wrong, that a leather armor actually gives +2 armor, while a plate upgrade gives around +5. Can anyone confirm if this is the case, or provide a link with those correct stats/etc.

    2) Attack value and Hitpoints. I cannot figure out why in some cases a unit that has 0 armor and 0 shield with only a defense rating can take more then 1 arrow to kill from missile damage. Is there hidden variables for units that allow them to take damage or is there a threshold that is required to kill a unit (2 hits minimum)?

    3) Weapon Types. I vaguely remember that when M2TW was released that billmen were overpowered (maybe it was zweihanders) because of their weapon type. Every weapon has different kill animations in this game and some are more efficient then others, does anyone know if that still holds true in TATW, and if so, do you have a link or can provide the information on what they are.

    Thanks for anyone who can assist with this information. I have literally scoured the forums of both here and through google searches for several hours trying to find this information to no avail. This just shows how intricate the systems were in M2TW were back in the day compared to the dumbed down version of Rome 2 today.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Unfortunately (or fortunately), most combat mechanics are difficult to understand and optimize mathematically in this game. The ones that are clear are weapon and armor upgrades - they give +1 which is visible on the unit stats screen, and so you can have a good estimation of what proportion you have increased the unit's attack/defense. Likewise, unit experience will grant +1 attack for each color chevron (+3 total for gold). Weapon/armor upgrades and veteran XP obviously have the biggest proportional benefit to lower tier units.

    However, comparing between different weapon types is impossible. Pikemen have horrible looking stats, but perform well in combat due to attack animations and passive modifiers. And of course, there are additional modifiers for fatigue, morale, terrain, and weather.

    The interaction between defense, hitpoints, and damage is not entirely clear. Hitpoints are not directly subtracted by the value of attack obviously. The best source I ever read on M2TW mechanics was actually a Q&A sessions with one of the devs at Creative, but even he was not completely explicit in his answers. (edit: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/archiv...p/t-39668.html)

    A different approach to understanding mechanics is empirical testing, simply using mod tools to measure the kill rate of units with different upgrades in a live game. I remember reading a post where someone did extensive testing of this form, but it might have been in Rome Total War.
    Last edited by DrDragun; February 21, 2014 at 10:04 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    No doubt that the information is convoluted.

    Surely the developers of TATW and unit balancers have some idea of how this all works though? Could we maybe get some information from them?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    And not to spam this thread but while we are at it, does anyone have information regarding terrain and weather effects and their impact on combat as a whole. Several units also have combat bonuses in certain terrain, is this a significant bonus, and if so do you know what it is? I know some players like to keep stats hidden but others like the number game associated with strategy and I am desperate to find this information out! Thanks for any assistance any of you have!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by PhDSigleaf View Post
    And not to spam this thread but while we are at it, does anyone have information regarding terrain and weather effects and their impact on combat as a whole. Several units also have combat bonuses in certain terrain, is this a significant bonus, and if so do you know what it is? I know some players like to keep stats hidden but others like the number game associated with strategy and I am desperate to find this information out! Thanks for any assistance any of you have!
    The climates only have an effect on fatigue, as shown in the spoiler:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    heat range 1-4 (zero would mean no armour effects to fatigue at all)

    climates
    {
    mediterranean ;Various 2
    sandy_desert ;Mordor 4
    rocky_desert ;Harad 4
    unused1 ;Forodwaith 0
    steppe ;Rhun 2
    temperate_deciduous_forest ;Central Middle-earth 1
    temperate_coniferous_forest ;Northern Middle-earth 0
    unused2 ;Used only for impassable tiles
    highland ;Dunland, Rohan, various 0
    alpine ;mountains 0
    tropical ;Moria 2
    semi_arid ;Harad 3


    Not sure how much impact those numbers have, but it's not insignificant.

    As for terrain:
    - standing in a high place is recommended as it will give you a range bonus and a fighting bonus when fighting those below. Running uphill will also tire troops out more quickly.
    - Some troops have bonusses when fighting in woods or snow (and probably desert too). This is not a whole lot, but every little thing helps. If a unit has that bonus, that info is given.

    Checking the export_descr_unit file in the data folder of your Third Age folder will provide a lot of numbers and info on various things. Though I can't really help you to make sense of it as I don't understand some things myself. All available units are in there as well, with all their stats, info, animations they use, etc.
    Even just mucking around in the data folder will give you a lot of info on basically everything you want to know about game mechanics.

    Edit: seems you have already found descr_units in the time it took for me to post this
    Last edited by Greymane; February 21, 2014 at 10:46 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Here is the thread I was referencing before... one of the developers at Creative Assembly answering mechanics questions. This is for Rome Total War, however you can get a good idea of their design philosophy and many of these mechanics likely carried forward.

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/archiv...p/t-39668.html

    JeromeGrasdyke

    02-09-2005, 19:49

    Ookaaay... that's a lot of questions. I'll have a go at answering some, although I probably won't have time to do them all, and the info probably won't be at hand for some. Here goes:

    What is the effect of being heavy or light infantry?

    None. This is a tag for the AI production mechanisms which corresponds to unit stats; generally all units with armour ratings above 7 should be considered heavy. The unit category is more important than class.

    What bonuses do weapons have against other weapons, eg swords vs spears, long spears vs other spears

    The spear bonusses are fed into the stats system in a couple of different ways, via the mounts bonusses (which are direct attack modifiers against units mounted on that particular mount type) and via the 'spear' weapon attribute. Units which are marked with spear gain a +4 combat bonus against cavalry and use the cavalry's charge bonus against them, while cavalry get a -4 attack penalty against them.

    What is the difference between "heavy" and "light" weapons?

    Again, this is a tag only, used by the sound I believe.

    What modifiers or effects do the "special" unit formations have, e.g. phalanx, Cantabrian circle, tetsudo, wedge?

    Phalanx formations gain rank bonusses when in formation, while testudo's get large defense bonusses against missile attacks. The Wedge gives an attack bonus based on superior concentration of weight at the point. The Cantabrian circle doesn't give an outright bonus, but gains its benefit from the actual battlefield behaviour.

    What exactly makes a unit gain experience? Killing peasants gives less than killing elite units, but what exactly determines this?

    Actually, a kill is always considered a kill for xp bonusses, except when the unit is routing (in which case it drops to a 20% chance of counting as a kill). Kills and xp are tracked on a per-soldier basis, and what is displayed is the unit average rounded to the nearest integer. There is a non-linear relationship between kills and xp which resembles a Fibonacci series. Then units which have been engaged in combat in a battle which started with a close to even strength balance may be awarded an extra kill per soldier at the end of combat.

    What are the effects of capturing another faction's capital or losing your own capital? Does the location of your faction leader have any effects? (Is it best to keep your faction leader in the capital? Does it matter?)

    None (other than what's normal for capturing a city), and no. The movement of the faction leader as used in Medieval caused so many annoyances during play that we decided to drop it.

    When I have reinforcements and there is a general present in that army, why does the general rush into battle, instead of staying behind his lines to add morale and to stay alive?

    We actually found this to have a whole slew of causes, the most common of which was that often the general's cavalry is the strongest unit in the army (especially early during a campaign). This means he'd generally look at the enemy army and say, "wow, I'm much stronger than any one of these units individually", and hurl himself into combat, expecting the rest of his army to follow... with unfortunate consequences. We've made the general's unit a lot more cautious in the 1.2 patch, but it still occasionally happens.

    The one game mechanic question that comes to mind for me, I'd like a detailed run-down of the strategic AI settings (caesar, mao, balanced, fortified, etc.). That would make customizing my game really easier.

    This was released onto the forums recently, you should be able to find it if you do a search.

    What influences probability of hit in fight?

    The most significant factors (in order) are: unit stats, height differential, relative facing, experience, fatigue, scissors-paper-stone, and the general's command bonus. There are a whole slew of special-purpose bonusses, such as ground and mount type, formations and so on as well. Detailing the whole system is well beyond the scope of this post...

    I would like to know (if this isn't anwered already) the effects of armor vs defense skill and shields.

    Armour is applied as a modifier to attacks from any facing, while defense is a parry-style bonus on the front and right flank, and the shield bonus applies front and left flank. Missile weapons ignore defense.

    Is "Provincial campaign" going to be in the patch?

    No, as you've probably already seen. It was intended as a mechanism for showing multiple campaigns other than the Imperial Campaign or the Sons of Mars, and I believe it still works as such. Any subfolders in data/world/maps/campaign/custom will get searched for extra campaign maps, and if they contain a valid campaign it will activate the Provincial Campaign menu. From this menu you can pick a campaign, which then leads to the 'pick-a-faction' menu, and so on. Could be quite useful for modders

    How does one get the chargebonus of the pikes in a phalanx unit? If you charge them in they will use the weaker swords (and thus the weaker charge), and in phalanx they don't run, so it isn't obvious if the chargebonus is added or not (doesn't seem so).

    Pike units cannot charge while using pikes, and so cannot receive a charge bonus.

    What is the slave bonus and how is it caused? What is the grain bonus and how is it caused? Can these be removed?

    The slave population growth bonus, like the grain one, is caused by resources on the map. If you enslave a city, it generates a slave resource, and any cities connected to that province by completed road links (city-to-city) benefit from one growth pip's bonus. This is cumulative per resource in the road network - 2 cities taken with Enslavement connect to a third city by road, that third city should show *two* pips of slave growth. This is part of what makes Egypt such an economic powerhouse - the Nile delta contains two grain resources, and so as soon as the Egyptians start building roads to connect all their cities, the overall population starts to rise quite quickly... And no, the bonusses cannot be removed.

    Well, I hope that's been useful to you guys.

    Last edited by DrDragun; February 21, 2014 at 10:08 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    That was an interesting read, thanks for the link DrDragun. I wish he had gone into more depth about the factors affecting attack but it does give a good deal about their design philosophy. I have taken a look at the export_units text file in the mod/data folder and I have found some answers that have eluded to more questions about my previous questions (;P). I'm using MOS 1.6.2 but the it should hold true to TATW as well:

    Concerning armor upgrades (copy pasted from document):
    ; armour_ug_levels:
    ;{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_0}None
    ;{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_1}Leather
    ;{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_2}Mail or Light Lamellar/Scale
    ;{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_3}Heavy Mail or Lamellar/Scale
    ;{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_4}Partial Plate or Heavy Lamellar/Scale
    ;{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_5}Full Plate or Advanced Lamellar/Scale
    ;{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_6}Isengard Steel
    ;{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_7}Mithril

    ; ARMOR LEVELS
    ; 0-1 = PADDED (none -> padded) requires leather tanner
    ; 1-2 = CHAINMAIL- (padded -> chainmail) requires blacksmith
    ; 2-3 = CHAINMAIL+ (chainm. -> lamellar) requires armorer (chain)
    ; 3-4 = PARTIAL PLATE (lamellar - > partial plate) requires heavy armorer
    ; 4-5 = FULL PLATE (partial plate -> full plate) requires plate armorer ;only dwarves & sicily

    Now it begs the question of... what the hell do all these values mean? Does the armor levels of 0-1 just just to pertain to an arbitrary number signifying that this unit using this tier of armor, or is it the added armor bonus that is hidden (like so many other stats). Brings my back to the primary question I posed in the first question. My experience in game is that units, even high tier ones with armor upgrades prove much more defensive then their counterparts (more then a +1 armor rating would suggest).

    And my question about terrain effects (Posted from document)
    ; GROUND TYPES MODIFIERS
    ;( 0, -1, 0, -2 infantry)
    ;(-1, -1, -3, -2 cavalry)
    ;
    ; Rohan: bonus of cavalry (0, 0, -2, -1 cavalry)
    ; Elves: bonus in woods/snow (0, -1, 1, -1 infantry) (-1, -1, -2, -2 cavalry)
    ; Dwarf: bonus in snow (0, -1, 0, 0 infantry)
    ; Rhun/Harad: bonus in deserts (0, 1, 0, -2 infantry) (-1, 1, -3, -2 cavalry)
    ; -1 for halberds/pikes in forests
    ; -1 for plated units in deserts
    ; -1 for all archers in forests (except wood specialists)

    Now I have no idea what they various numbers mean, but the negative values don't make sense from an armor point of view as you would assume elves would get a bonus in woods, and dwarves would get a bonus in snow, so does this value apply to attacks done against these units?

    And last but not least, I went through various hitpoints of units trying to figure out what the hell was going on with units taking more then 1 hit to kill when they should indeed die in one and what i found:
    ; stat_health Hit points of man, followed by hit points of mount or attached animal (if applicable)
    ; Ridden horses and camels do not have separate hit points
    Examining randomly selections of units in the game many infantry have 2 values here, most all of them have 1, # but many infantry have a 1, 2 or a 1, 3 or a 1, 5. Would that indicate that there's a hidden value for additional hitpoints in units that isn't obvious, why else would there be a secondary value for infantry units who are not attached to an animal.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Thanks for the reply Greymane. Does anyone know how general stats affect their army as well? What does command stars correlate with and + attack bonuses (from items/faction heir). Does the attack bonus apply to only the general, the generals regiment, or the entire army?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Looked at those values behind Elves/Dwarves/etc again and it would seem that all units get negative modifiers for terain by default. The bonusses negate those negatives, or turn them into positive values.
    I would therefore conclude that the third value is the modifier for woodland and the fourth for snow. The second is desert, and the first probably regular terain. Rohan's mastery of horses increases all modifiers by 1. I have absolutely no idea about the armor ratings but I would assume the are just tiers. Go into Custom Battle, select a unit, up his armor as far as it can go and compare with a standard unit. That will give you an idea how much armor increases (if you do it for a lot of units). It's probably just 1.

    Attack bonus for a general does not apply to the whole army, probably just to the guy himself, but you can compare the bodyguard of one with the attack bonus to one without it. Just make sure they have the same xp and upgrades.
    Command correlates with morale (AFAIK). Of your own force, that is.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    I believe the armor levels are tags for which blacksmith upgrades it. The actual armor types may have other bonuses though... I vaguely recall heavy plate having more fatigue in the desert.

    As for the effects of a General's command, there is this excerpt which suggests additional hidden bonuses. Again, this is for Rome...

    What influences probability of hit in fight?

    The most significant factors (in order) are: unit stats, height differential, relative facing, experience, fatigue, scissors-paper-stone, and the general's command bonus. There are a whole slew of special-purpose bonusses, such as ground and mount type, formations and so on as well. Detailing the whole system is well beyond the scope of this post...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    The AI is being so completely uncooperative, I'm going to switch to testing the heat/stat_heat interaction while I think of a better testing method

    Basically with 7 armor the balance-of-power bar is about 75% in my favor, while with 0 armor and 3 upgrades it's about 25% in my favor. Apparently this influences the AI's tactics, and they won't stay at a consistent range across both tests. I'll give it another go later when I've worked out a better strategy.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Going to piggy-back some questions as well as answers here:

    Q: There's a stat_heat in export_descr_unit as well as a heat value in descr_climates. Given that the heat values in descr_climates use decimals, I would guess that they're multipliers for the stat_heat values. This would be the most intuitive system in my mind, but does anyone know for sure how the two values interact?

    ; stat_health Hit points of man, followed by hit points of mount or attached animal (if applicable)
    ; Ridden horses and camels do not have separate hit points
    Examining randomly selections of units in the game many infantry have 2 values here, most all of them have 1, # but many infantry have a 1, 2 or a 1, 3 or a 1, 5. Would that indicate that there's a hidden value for additional hitpoints in units that isn't obvious, why else would there be a secondary value for infantry units who are not attached to an animal.
    Like it says that second hp # is for any attached animals, like War Dogs in RTW. Obviously no Medieval unit actually has an attached animal, however the Autoresolve still takes the value into account. So to help balance autoresolve, where small but elite units and cavalry can sometimes be undervalued, we raise that value to make them more powerful in Autoresolve. It doesn't have any effect on the battle map.

    And last but not least, I went through various hitpoints of units trying to figure out what the hell was going on with units taking more then 1 hit to kill when they should indeed die in one
    RTW had a "Lethality" value which meant units who were "hit" may not necessarily die. M2TW uses something else but the results are similar. At the top of battle_config.xml you'll find:

    <!-- global combat balancing factors -->
    <combat-balancing>
    <missile-target-accuracy>
    <infantry>1.0</infantry>
    <cavalry>1.5</cavalry>
    <elephants>2.0</elephants>
    </missile-target-accuracy>
    <melee-hit-rate>1.50</melee-hit-rate>
    </combat-balancing>

    Clearly the exact formula is a bit beyond us, but if you change those values you'll see more units dying outright when struck by arrows/melee attacks.

    As for Armor Upgrades...it's funny you made this thread, there are a lot of opinions floating out there and I had decided yesterday I wanted to come to one for myself. Right now I'm a bit convinced by the argument that Armor Upgrades are worth 2-2.5 armor points, even though the UI is bugged and shows only +1.

    As for the {EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_0} lines, those I can actually explain. Basically, they come from data/text/expanded.txt. They're only used (afaik) to link the armor upgrades with the tooltips that say "Next Armor Upgrade: Light Mail". As an example, if you look at a mod like RR/RC 2.0 for Stainless Steel 6.4, they have 43 of those EMT_ARMOUR_LEVELS. If a unit entry in export_descr_unit says says you can upgrade with EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_17, it would find that entry in expandex.txt and display "Next Armor Upgrade: Coat of Plates" because Coat of Plates is entry 17.

    The Blacksmith building chain also uses them to figure out what armor levels they're allowed to upgrade. The Leather Tanner for instance can upgrade EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_1, which is Leather. You can find those values in descr_buildings.

    So as far as I know currently, they have no impact on how much armor you actually receive from upgrading. A Bronze Shield upgrade that takes you from _0 (Unarmored) to _1 (Leather) is worth the same as a Bronze Shield upgrade that takes from _5 (Full Plate) to _6 (Isengard Steel). What that bonus actually is is up for debate, some people say it's 1, some people say it's 2-2.5, and some people say it's 4. When I've finished my own testing I'll throw it on the pile here.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    "I have literally scoured the forums"

    Literally?

    "Examining randomly selections of units in the game many infantry have 2 values here, most all of them have 1, # but many infantry have a 1, 2 or a 1, 3 or a 1, 5."

    So far, the received wisdom is that secondary HPs will only count up to a maximum of 3. It would be a simple test to auto-resolve a battle between two identical armies then increase one of them's secondary HPs and see if there's a difference, or if setting the value to 10 does anything. They are used only for auto-resolve, except for elephants, in which case the second number is the actual HPs of the unit.

    The EDU says this about ground effects:

    ; stat_ground Combat modifiers on different ground types. From left to right
    ; scrub, sand, forest, snow

    Units will get a bonus or a penalty in different terrains based on those numbers. Elves usually get +1 in forest, Harad gets +1 in desert, stuff like that. Pikes get -1 in forest and scrub, two-handed weapon-using units get -1 in forest.

    This is from the latest RC 2 guide:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    MASTER ARMOR TABLE
    Armor Type Upgrade Smith Armor Heat Joules to Move Agility Terrain Mass Attack
    Level Level Penalty Penetrate Rate Defense Penalties Delay
    Required Bonus
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unarmored 0 0 0 0 Fast(1) +3 Light(1) 0
    Heavy Robes, Furs etc 0 0 1 1 Fast(1) +3 Light(1) 0

    Leather 1 1 3 3 25 Fast(1) +2 Light(1) 1
    Gambeson 2 1 3+1def 4 40 Fast(1) +2 Light(1) 1
    Leather Lamellar 3 1 4 4 Fast(1) +2 Light(1) 1

    Light Brigandine 4 2 5 5 Med(2) +1 Medium(2) 2
    Light Lamellar/Scale 5 2 6 6 70 Med(2) +1 Medium(2) 2
    Partial Light Mail 6 2 5 5 Med(2) +1 Medium(2) 2
    Light Mail 7 2 5+1def 5 70/55 vs missiles Med(2) +1 Medium(2) 2

    Buff Coat 8 3 6 5 Med(2) +1 Medium(2) 2
    Lamellar/Scale 9 3 8 8 100 Med(2) 0 Medium(2) 3 +15
    Partial Heavy Mail 10 3 7 7 Med(2) 0 Medium(2) 3 +15
    Heavy Mail 11 3 7+1def 7 100/85 vs missiles Med(2) 0 Medium(2) 3 +15
    Brigandine 12 3 7 7 Med(2) 0 Medium(2) 3 +15

    Splint, Coat of Plates 13 4 9+1def 9 Med(2) 0 Medium(2) 4 +15
    Heavy Lamellar/Scale 14 4 10 9 125 Med(2) 0 Medium(2) 4 +15
    Heavy Brigandine 15 4 9 8 Med(2) 0 Medium(2) 4 +15
    Partial Plate 16 4 12 9 100-160 Slow(3) 0 Heavy(3) 5 +15
    Breastplate 17 4 8 5 Fast(1) +2 Light(1) 2

    Heavy Splint 18 5 11+1def 10 Slow(3) 0 Heavy(3) 5 +15
    Kataphract 19 5 Special Special Slow(3) 0 Heavy(3) 5 +15
    Late Lamellar 19 5 12 10 Slow(3) 0 Heavy(3) 5 +15
    Late Brigandine 20 5 11 9 Slow(3) 0 Heavy(3) 5 +15
    Full Plate 21 5 14 9 160 Slow(3) 0 Heavy(3) 5 +15
    Improved Metallurgy 22 5 +2 -

    Gothic Plate 23 6 16 10 185 Slow(3) 0 Heavy(3) 5 +15
    Renaissance Half Plate 24 6 10 6 Med(2) +1 Medium(2) 3
    Advanced Metallurgy 25 6 +2 -
    Renaissance 3Q Plate 26 6 12 7 Med(2) 0 Medium(2) 4 +15
    Greater Armor Thickness 27 6 +2 +1


    M2TW ARMOR UPGRADE LEVELS EXPLAINED
    -----------------------------------
    Note that in the MASTER ARMOR TABLE above the Upgrade Level ranges from 0-27, but that for example in export_descr_units the French Feudal Knight's armour_ug_levels is armour_ug_levels 11, 17, 22, 37. In the table above, that is Heavy Mail->Breastpate->Improved Metallurgy->?
    In fact there are 43 levels (defined in expanded.text), because the upper-class fighting men have a 10-25 year 'window' to use this new technology before it becomes more commonplace. The following table is therefore in approximately chronological order. In this case
    The French Feudal Knights armour_ug_levels 11, 17, 22, 37 is Heavy Mail->Coat of Plates->Partial Plate->Improved Metallurgy. Note that the Coat of plates (#17) predates the coat of plates used by the more common fighting man (#19) by about 15 years, and the partial plate the same.
    0}None
    1}Leather
    2}Padded
    3}Leather Lamellar
    4}Light Brigandine
    5}Light Lamellar
    6}Partial Light Mail
    7}Light Mail
    8}Buff Coat
    9}Lamellar
    10}Partial Heavy Mail
    11}Heavy Mail
    12}Lamellar
    13}Partial Heavy Mail
    14}Heavy Mail
    15}Brigandine
    16}Brigandine
    17}Coat of Plates
    18}Heavy Lamellar
    19}Coat of Plates
    20}Heavy Lamellar
    21}Heavy Brigandine
    22}Partial Plate
    23}Heavy Brigandine
    24}Partial Plate
    25}Breastplate
    26}Breastplate
    27}Heavy Splint
    28}Late Lamellar
    29}Late Brigandine
    30}Full Plate
    31}Heavy Splint
    32}Late Lamellar
    33}Late Brigandine
    34}Full Plate
    35}Renaissance Half Plate
    36}Renaissance Half Plate
    37}Improved Metallurgy
    38}Gothic Plate
    39}Gothic Plate
    40}Advanced Metallurgy
    41}Renaissance 3-Quarter Plate
    42}Renaissance 3-Quarter Plate
    43}Increased Armor Thickness


    "When I've finished my own testing I'll throw it on the pile here."

    Yay! Now I don't have to do it!

    Can you test the weapon upgrade too?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Thanks for the input and your testing, I am starting to understand this stats system a little more. I have been trying to figure out how the attack/defense system works.

    According to this thread http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...mor-shield-etc

    There is a lethality system (as Kolaris stated prior) that effects the game. I'm not sure if this information is correct but the link provided a equation with:

    const1 * lethality * 1.1 ^ ( ATK - DEF + MDF ) "originally posted by user Aradan"

    It appears that const1 is a animation constant, lethality is based on the units weapon and MDF would be medium difficulty which destroys the assumption that I previously thought difficulty only affected troop morale.
    I will do more research but I would be interested to know the lethality integer for each weapon and some sort of idea what a VH difficulty would add to that foruma. Furthermore, how does this apply to hitpoints, if you do a non-lethal strike, does it correlate that number with a decimal and subtract it from 1 (hitpoints for most units) and that leads to the bleed effect that some mobs have, or do you have to land a lethality strike to kill a unit?

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by PhDSigleaf View Post
    const1 * lethality * 1.1 ^ ( ATK - DEF + MDF ) "originally posted by user Aradan"

    ... MDF would be medium difficulty which destroys the assumption that I previously thought difficulty only affected troop morale.
    I have a very vague recollection that game difficulty does not play a part in M2TW, only RTW. In M2TW it only affects morale. Don't quote me on that though.

    EDIT: to clarify: does not play a part in unit stats.
    Last edited by Withwnar; February 22, 2014 at 10:02 AM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Withwnar View Post
    I have a very vague recollection that game difficulty does not play a part in M2TW, only RTW. In M2TW it only affects morale. Don't quote me on that though.
    I just quoted you on that
    One does not desire the power of a nation,
    So much as one treasures reputation.
    This poem is not a 'trap', nor a 'trep',
    It is simply a device for the collection of rep.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    In regards to my previous question on heat/stat_heat:

    It's definitely a multiplier. A unit with 10 stat_heat in a 0 heat climate (Forodwaith) tired at the same rate as a 0 stat_heat unit in a 4 heat climate (Mordor). A unit with 20 stat_heat in a 1 heat climate (Bree) tired at the same rate as a 5 stat_heat unit in a 4 heat climate (Mordor).

    I don't know if a frigid climate should completely negate stat_heat...makes me think there should be no 0 heat climates, only fractions like 0.5 (like in PB's system).

    I also noticed there's a total cap on heat fatigue gain in the 30-40 range. There was no difference between a 10 stat_heat unit in a 4 heat climate and a 50 stat_heat unit in a 4 heat climate.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Can anyone confirm that different weapons in TATW have different lethality ratings. I am confused why the system would use:

    <!-- global combat balancing factors -->
    <combat-balancing>
    <missile-target-accuracy>
    <infantry>1.0</infantry>
    <cavalry>1.5</cavalry>
    <elephants>2.0</elephants>
    </missile-target-accuracy>
    <melee-hit-rate>1.50</melee-hit-rate>
    </combat-balancing>

    if that were the case, but it clearly does not seem that weapon types are the same, but maybe it is accounted for through weapon speed and AP.

    Also, trolls are listed under the units document as wielding a mace as their weapon but do not show as having AP on unit card, are maces, warhammers, etc all inherently given AP without it being stated, or does that stat specifically need to be assigned?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    Trolls are not AP, they just have enormous attack values. It doesn't make much realistic sense, but it does for gameplay. You want high-tier elite units to have at least some chance against trolls, but if they had AP they would shred them (faster than they already do).

    All weapons should have the same "lethality". What makes you think that they wouldn't?

    Animations, attack speed, attack value, AP - they all contribute to making weapons unique, but they should all use the same "lethality" rating found above.

    I suppose it's possible that the formula used to calculate a kill takes into account how far your attack exceeds the targets defense. That could be why Trolls rarely fail to kill a unit (I'm not sure if they even do, just a hypothetical what-if).

  20. #20

    Default Re: Question about Unit Stats, Armor Upgrades, Weapons

    The received wisdom is that the lethality stat is not used in M2. Before you read too much into that article/thread, remember it was about Rome.

    "Animations, attack speed, attack value, AP - they all contribute to making weapons unique,"

    Don't forget strike_distance. The "attack speed" is an attack delay - the time between attack animations.

    "I don't know if a frigid climate should completely negate stat_heat"

    No, it shouldn't. If you've ever shovelled snow or biked in the winter you will know how much you sweat, even if it's -20.

    "Basically with 7 armor the balance-of-power bar is about 75% in my favor, while with 0 armor and 3 upgrades it's about 25% in my favor."

    What are you testing? The influence of upgrades on auto-resolve? My intended way of testing the value of an upgrade was to have some battles involving a unit with 0 armour, then 1, then 2, then 3, all the way to 7 or so, and then to take down the armour to 0 and put in an upgrade and see which result from the first series of tests it most closely matched. The shield would be 0 and the defense skill 0 too. I also thought of doing this test with missiles. Let the AI shoot a few volleys at me and record the number of men killed by each volley.

    If the AI refuses to cooperate, these tests could also be done in multiplayer.
    Last edited by k/t; February 21, 2014 at 11:30 PM.

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