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Thread: Editing the BAI?

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  1. #1

    Default Editing the BAI?

    I'll say right off that I'm not a serious modder. I have only implemented a few basic tweaks in certain files in older games like Medieval 2 and Rome 1. I know the whole setup for the newer games is different.

    That said, there are certain issues that really nag me that I have looked forever for a solution for. The main one in Shogun 2 being the battle AI, or more specifically the defensive naval AI ever since the release of Fall of the Samurai.

    So far, I have been researching the modding of the BAI and the responses I've seen indicate that this is "impossible." I'm not sure I agree. The code to mod it has to be buried somewhere, its just not been identified yet.

    The problem with Naval AI:

    The AI's strategy is to set up a stationary line as far back as they can, broadsides facing player, hug the map edge as much as possible, only break line or engage when the player gets close. When all else fails, the AI on defense will make a break for the edge of the map and camp there, with broadside facing the player. As a strategy, this kind of works in Fall of the Samurai where cannon-armed ships are usual. It does not work so well, however, in the main game or Rise of the Samurai, which are both effected by this change.

    In the main game or in ROTS, the defensive AI will set up their traditional ships in a similar line far back in the deployment zone, with bows facing the player. They will rotate in place pointing where the player goes, but otherwise not move or react until attacked. When they're in this "mode," you can see the ships rowing but not moving. This makes it easy to move to their flanks and hit them from both sides (since they don't move, at. all.). When attacked, it seems about 50/50 whether they'll fight back or run to the map edges where they get stuck and become useless (without cannons that is).

    When the AI is the attacker, they don't adopt this strategy and instead seek out and attack the player's ships, reacting much more dynamically to player moves. They also don't run to the map edges. Trouble is - about 90% of my naval battles in campaign are with me as the attacker. This becomes very tedious, especially post-Realm Divide when a lot of the game is fending off endless naval invasion attempts from clans on the other side of the map.

    I know that before the patch that came with FOTS, the naval AI did not behave this way. And while this naval AI approach is "sound" (if repetitive and boring) in FOTS, it is certainly not useful for the AI in the main game or ROTS.

    I don't really like to accept that its "impossible" to mod this. There must be a way to fix it if only the relevant files could be identified.

    There are a couple ways this could be fixed. Firstly, the changes made after the patch could be identified and reversed (though someone would have to have access to a pre-patch game which, with Steam, is not conventionally possible). Secondly, if the files controlling the BAI are identified, it might be possible to change it so that in every naval battle, the AI acts as if it were the attacker.

    I think its safe to say that the modding community is the only hope of fixing this issue, as CA has moved on from Shogun 2 and is busy trying to fix Rome 2.

  2. #2
    Artifex
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    Default Re: Editing the BAI?

    Thanks to CA, BAI modding is now impossible.
    My Mod:
    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  3. #3

    Default Re: Editing the BAI?

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    Thanks to CA, BAI modding is now impossible.
    Exactly how is it impossible though? The code for it has to be somewhere... And even if this proves to be unfeasible, mightn't it be possible to mod the campaign so it thinks every naval battle is a defense for the player?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Editing the BAI?

    I know nothing about modding newer total war games, but it would seem that this wouldn't really need modding at all, just copying the aggressive Naval AI and putting it over the defensive AI.

    BTW I disagree about one point you made, this AI is completely retarded even for FoTS.

  5. #5
    Artifex
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    Default Re: Editing the BAI?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steward Denethor II View Post
    I know nothing about modding newer total war games, but it would seem that this wouldn't really need modding at all, just copying the aggressive Naval AI and putting it over the defensive AI.
    Since Shogun II, CA prevents us from editing the BAI and CAI. Maybe they don't want us to see their embarassing, amateurish work. Who knows?
    The only thing possible is the partial modification of the CAI. We can modify unit quality, balance values and several priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steward Denethor II View Post
    BTW I disagree about one point you made, this AI is completely retarded even for FoTS.
    Indeed. One of the island factions declared war on me, they got their butts kicked and asked for peace - while demanding money from me.
    Not to mention the passive BAI bug, the suicidal generals, the breakdancing light infantry behaviour, problems with ranked fire etc.
    My Mod:
    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  6. #6

    Default Re: Editing the BAI?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steward Denethor II View Post
    I know nothing about modding newer total war games, but it would seem that this wouldn't really need modding at all, just copying the aggressive Naval AI and putting it over the defensive AI.
    These were my thoughts exactly. But apparantly it's "impossible." I'm assuming the AI is hidden in lines of code somewhere in the game in some data pack, just not where it was before in previous games.

    As for the AI being utterly retarded, it will never be able to consistently match a skilled human player. That would be far too much to hope for. Just from the "feel" of playing though, Shogun 2 seems a serious step up in the value of the AI from ETW and NTW. I enjoy playing against it, just the really grating thing right now is the shoddy state they left naval battles in.

    I haven't done serious mod work before and only barely scraped the surface with Medieval 2 and Civ IV, and I know those games are far far easier to mod than the later generations of TW games. I'm not asking someone in the mod community to do it for me, but if I had the tools and knowledge to get started I'd like to see what I could do. I just need some idea of where to look. And think of the possibilities it would open up for other modders.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Editing the BAI?

    I should have phrased my last statement better. I meant that I believe that particular behavior, the moving of the ships to the edge, is shamefully stupid even in FOTS, while you stated that it is sound in that expansion. I would have to disagree.

    I would agree though that this AI is generally better than Empire, and Napoleon as well. But its still no Alexander. And I agree Destin Faroda that the supposedly improved diplomacy in this game is bad, I would say worse than Medieval 2 when you fixed a certain bug and with a bit of modding. In Shogun 2 the AI often will sue for peace when weakened, but for some reason they accept vassalage without even demanding anything, but if I dare ask for some gold instead, then they refuse without hesitation. And dont get me started on trade agreements.

    But I am going off topic.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Editing the BAI?

    By editing Groupformations.bin(use the <Spanning></Spanning> tag), you may change how the BAI move it's units around the battlefield(at least in land battles,I never try navy ).

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