[Amendment] Abolish CdeC

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Which is why I had left it unchanged and with CdeC.

Which is why you had my support for the initial proposal.

[Derpy Hooves]

How about having a citizens triumvirate consisting of the curator and both magistrates, and they can privately review disciplinary cases. I think that would work really well.

​Support

[ElvenKind]

How about having a citizens triumvirate consisting of the curator and both magistrates, and they can privately review disciplinary cases. I think that would work really well.

This has my support too.

Not ( just ) because you are my patron.. It is a very good idea.

[Inkie]

Great idea there, I'm going to sign on for 'abolition of CdeC and the passing of disciplinary responsibilities to the Curator and magistrates.'

I had actually thought there was only one magistrate and two tribunes, guess I was wrong.

[StealthFox]

Great idea there, I'm going to sign on for 'abolition of CdeC and the passing of disciplinary responsibilities to the Curator and magistrates.'

I had actually thought there was only one magistrate and two tribunes, guess I was wrong.

There are two magistrates, they are currently Diamat and Karavroom (sp? ). They rotate cases in the Tribunal so that only one sits on a case at a time.

[Lord William]

I don't see how this will solve anything quite the opposite I feel it would deter activity and push active members away. Taking away responsibility is never a good way to increase activity, it is the sense of responsibility which causes them to be active to begin with. Also I would like to bring up that the CdeC when examining an application examine them throughly, I doubt that the average citizen will take the time to throughly examine each application and I don't believe in giving the responsibility to the Hex when the CdeC can do the job themselves.

[Squid]

I don't see how this will solve anything quite the opposite I feel it would deter activity and push active members away.

How would this deter activity? As I've pointed out if you aren't in CdeC or aren't the Curator your activity is generally about 30 seconds a month to vote, so most citizens don't even bother. This increases the potential for activity by giving citizens something to do other than watching the paint dry in the capitol.

Taking away responsibility is never a good way to increase activity, it is the sense of responsibility which causes them to be active to begin with.

This isn't taking responsibility from anybody, except CdeC. It is giving citizens back the responsibility that citizens gave to CdeC in the first place.

Also I would like to bring up that the CdeC when examining an application examine them throughly

You're joking right, it doesn't take much reading of applications to know that most of time little to no in depth research is done, not to mention that totally ignores everything Q said earlier.

I doubt that the average citizen will take the time to throughly examine each application

They'd examine applications as thoroughly as CdeC does now.

and I don't believe in giving the responsibility to the Hex when the CdeC can do the job themselves.

I'm not sure where this is coming from since no one is advocating giving the responsibility to hex.

[Lord William]

How would this deter activity? As I've pointed out if you aren't in CdeC or aren't the Curator your activity is generally about 30 seconds a month to vote, so most citizens don't even bother. This increases the potential for activity by giving citizens something to do other than watching the paint dry in the capitol.

Simple as you stated the only members whom spend more than 30 seconds on the Curia boards is the CdeC and the Curator, and by striping them of their responsibility they will disappear into the masses. of course this is speculation just as you are only speculating that by doing this you will increase activity

This isn't taking responsibility from anybody, except CdeC. It is giving citizens back the responsibility that citizens gave to CdeC in the first place.

Citizens influence site policies and can amend the constitution which is an immense responsibility. If the average citizen is not active for implementing change within the constitution, what makes you think they will care at all about citizenship applications.

You're joking right, it doesn't take much reading of applications to know that most of time little to no in depth research is done, not to mention that totally ignores everything Q said earlier.

Its easy belittling other people's work, but the fact is that the ideal CdeC member should be putting immense amount of effort into each application. now if you dont think that the current CdeC members don't uphold your standards than don't vote for them next election but don't say that the citizenry as a whole can do a better job than the CdeC.

I missed what Q said and I apologize, I will reread and address his statement

I'm not sure where this is coming from since no one is advocating giving the responsibility to hex.

I have seen it mentioned within the thread, i merely wished to address the idea and point out that it is mot

[Ishan]

Looks like gloves are coming off here.

How about having a citizens triumvirate consisting of the curator and both magistrates, and they can privately review disciplinary cases. I think that would work really well.

OMG that's brilliant!

I feel it would deter activity and push active members away

sense of responsibility

Also I would like to bring up that the CdeC when examining an application examine them throughly

[GrnEyedDvl]

Why keep CDEC at all, let HEX deal with the discipline of citizens?

That's the last thing I want to deal with, unless the entire Curia is completely restructured and rebooted which is far beyond the scope of this proposal.

[Radboud]

I don't see how this will solve anything quite the opposite I feel it would deter activity and push active members away. Taking away responsibility is never a good way to increase activity, it is the sense of responsibility which causes them to be active to begin with. Also I would like to bring up that the CdeC when examining an application examine them throughly, I doubt that the average citizen will take the time to throughly examine each application and I don't believe in giving the responsibility to the Hex when the CdeC can do the job themselves.

I agree entirely, the CdeC is very capable and should keep its current powers. If anything the CdeC should be stricter at times instead of being as lenient as they sometimes are (although I have no problem accepting their final decisions).

Oppose, obviously.

[Squid]

I agree entirely, the CdeC is very capable and should keep its current powers.

CdeC isn't capable or else we wouldn't be having this discussion and hex wouldn't have to regularly step in and tell CdeC what it should be doing.

If anything the CdeC should be stricter at times instead of being as lenient as they sometimes are (although I have no problem accepting their final decisions).

Oppose, obviously.

More strict? We already didn't promote one member with a large mod, another with more than sufficient content work (by a large margin) plus other stuff, a third member who had non-standard contributions that were again good enough by a large margin and at least three cases that I know of where a member of hex has stepped in and told CdeC to get their damn act together and stop being idiots. As with my response to Lord William this entirely fails to address what Q posted about.

[The Roman Republic]

Abstain,

I don't have the right to judge such a thing with no experience or full knowledge of what's best for the Curia from only becoming a Citizen six days ago.

[Noif de Bodemloze]

Gentlemens... seem you are attacking against CDEC what have seen on these amendment threads. Everyone has made mistakes on their on judgement and that happen for all for us, even in Cdec and possible on HEX too. I know that you all are citizens as well, but seem most HEX and couple Mods are taking actions against us. Think about the past time, there was good and bad moments (I don't know whole history of Cdec) and we all CDEC councillors have made our researches so long as our reports are long or shorts, some councillors put our effort for this that we make right choices about citizen application. We do our jobs and that way we have got many good councillors, who have worked hard on this suffering a time and passion. Now, you reward us like this? Hasty and offensive comments. Unacceptable by Hex, what I have admired long time.

Even I feel and see hasty comments in this and another thread that you (HEX members) doesn't even care about CDEC anymore, just let a ship keep sinking. Why you HEX/Mods (ok, couple moderators are been there, but they are not immortals like us) members doesn't applied to CDEC if you feel that something isn't right?
Do you think that Hex can do better work on citizen applications than Cdec? We will see, but I doubt it.

I apologize this, but sword strike need counter by another sword strike.

[Ishan]

I apologize this, but sword strike need counter by another sword strike.

No need to, your post has hardly anything that can be construed as offensive or counter strike. In fact all the CdeC members in this thread are alright. Hex and some of the supporters of this proposal are addressing this as a collective CdeC body and the situation it has dug itself in. No one is addressing anyone in particular. As that usually drags the discussion into an unintended direction and quickly loses its focus.

Otherwise we would've picked cases and posts in particular to fortify our points.

[Squid]

I've posted some of the changes to the OP for totally removing CdeC, some sections are not yet complete (Section II Article II & Section III Article IV specifically) and some deleted stuff still needs to be inserted elsewhere. I'm out of time for today and didn't want to lose the changes I'd started on.

[Lord William]

Abolish the CdeC???? I figured this was the end game, well my opposition has not changed

[karamazovmm]

i agree with this... killing of the cdec.

now we just need another bill so that I can actually start patronising. I hardly see any reason in breeding, unless there is a motive behind it. currently patronising stands for the sheer act of getting one more and that is just another mark of stagnation and nothingness.

Inarus mentioned that content killed the curia expansion.... there is absolutely nothing stopping any citizen to enter content and do something, or to enter other bodies, except moderation, and do something.

One thing I have to note is that.... Im feeling extremely uncomfortable with this magistrate empowerment...

while logically it makes sense to enlarge the responsibility... I feel that what is supposed to be a lesser popularity context and more of a debate regarding fairness, will transform into a major popularity context given now the power vacuum that the cdec will leave behind.

In other terms, I view the magistrate as a good position to make something great and to put fairness to good use. With this empowerment it will be a power grabbing position and Im not confident that the exercise of common sense is known to all, be the person popular or not.

and Im not even saying that Im the most fair and outstanding magistrate that ever walked or will here.

[Inkie]

I do, but I always feel like people will react as if I've called for a lynching when I talk about it

@Kara though in essence, it's just a Curial replication of work that Magistrates already do isn't it?

[karamazovmm]

@Kara though in essence, it's just a Curial replication of work that Magistrates already do isn't it?

it is, basically its a extension of the responsibilities that the magistrates have... That's why I said its a logical extension of the duties that magistrates perform.

However that would mean that the empowerment of the position is happening, not only to the extensions of the duties already assigned, but rather in that triumvirate... This means that the magistrate position would suddenly gain a notoriety and the current debate that we have before we vote, so that we could choose with somewhat informed opinions on which one to ascertain that punishments have been dished out properly is going to take a whole new level of popularity contest, not rather if one can employ some amount of common sense.