All Powerful Q
Content Emeritus
Administrator Emeritus
Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship
4 days ago I reached nine years as a citizen. In that time I've seen the Curia in many forms, and I've seen bills on all sorts of things. This is easily the most progressive and inclusive bill I've seen in that whole period of time. I support it wholeheartedly.
Originally Posted by
Påsan
Because in my eyes, removing the CdeC would not solve the main issue, which is that the Curia is perceived as boring and/or useless. It would remove the CdeC elections which at least attach a certain number of people to the Curia.
The first time I patronized someone for citizenship was in 2005 - citizen applications were still handled by Hexagon Council then. I'm not the most prolific of patrons in terms of numbers, but I've been in the market here and there the whole time. What I find and it has been getting worse in the past six months, is a fear of CdeC from general members. I've asked a lot of people who'd I consider valuable to the site and community of whom should feel welcome in what is essentially, a VIP area of the forum. The general perception I get on the ground is that people would be most happy with a funky citizen badge and some extra privilege. But they feel it's a waste of time trying because the bar is so high. When I became a citizen I had around 120 posts. While I wouldn't advocate going to such a low level of regular posting these days, I feel the bar has gone too far the opposite way. Too far to the point where it can be difficult, even for the first guy to mod a Warscape engine campaign map in years to get it without intervention from Hexagon. There's a propensity for some in CdeC to jump to a no conclusion too early without so much as even bothering checking out their latest posts. With more people chipping in, then this is less likely. If you want a recent example of this, only last week, Dictator's application comes up. The Head of News of all people.
Originally Posted by
Mhaedros
To be perfectly honest I don't really see a reason I should vote yes for this candidate at this stage.
Jumped to conclusions far too early in my opinion sir. If you'd had checked the recent posts, what I said later on the same application would have been obvious. Ok I intervened...but if I hadn't....well. I get the feeling with a number of applications, particularly one's that go No, is that someone posts early doors an immediate no without doing decent checking, then other councillors snowball to that opinion. The exact same thing almost happened in spartan_warrior's application and he's a modding pioneer. Again it took Hex intervention on that one.
Originally Posted by
Inarus
Support, let's also rename the Curia to the Thema Devia and give out Optifex medals to anyone who can unlock all Rome 1 factions by himself.
This is, simply, insulting. Not to mention the "a CdeCer can be bribed" remark, a phrase recently being hurled around like stones at a Dark Ages execution.
Inarus you think it's insulting that CdeC as a model, a structure gets criticized? What do you think people feel like when they're told "no"? Do you think it makes them feel welcome? Now for another "myth" as you say...the purpose of the Curia.
Originally Posted by
Inarus
There's this big myth which perhaps, was once true, that the Curia has a purpose other than a lounging place, that the Curia should do something and people keep saying it, I think I said it once, only I realised I was not sure what. The Curia is a relic of a time when Citizens had a purpose but now we have none, when there were thoughts of a CVRIA driven article, they were cast aside because, oh yes, Content handles that.
I've said explicitly more than once recently that if people in the Curia want to make some sort of content, so long as it doesn't conflict with the sites interests, then it's fine. I even tried to get some sort of newsletter going in here - again recently. In retrospect it was a waste of time - but it told me one thing. That these kind of things don't work in Curia. It is not its purpose. People have bandied around for an eon saying the Curia should do something in your face. Right there in front of you. Within that has been lost the true purpose of the Curia.
Originally Posted by
Inarus
Content has absorbed all possibility that the Curia can contribute to the site, what we have left is this lounge. And people come up with proposals to bring some dynamics to the Curia, a grand scheme to add some fun to it all, but it's shot down or manipulated by people who think the Curia is pointless and are nostalgic for what they think it once was.
No content-esque work has ever been done well in the Curia in my nine years as a citizen. Not ever. Not once. This is the true purpose of the Curia. This is why it was founded. It was not founded to explicitly do tasks. It was founded so that regulars - like in a bar or club were made to feel more welcome, more at home. Within that was an expectation that anyone made into a citizen was an example of how to be a friendly, decent and helpful poster. Years ago there was a forum called Newb Alley in the Total War area of the boards where decent numbers of citizens would help out people with there "newb" Total War problems. When someone sees citizens - irrespective of whether they've made a mod that's the bees knees or anything like that, if people are regular posters and being welcoming, friendly and supportive of new users, the new users see the badge and aspire to that too. How do they get it? By also being similarly helpful, friendly and supportive in the community in the many ways available. That isn't necessarily the Curia itself doing something - that is merely citizens posting and setting a good example. That is a virtue. That is a positive thing. That is why posting alone should be enough for citizenship, but it isn't. It used to be. Why's that? Because of the wholly incorrect interpretation of the constitution:
Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen of the Forum as per Article 2 below.
This line was placed into the constitution at the same time as CdeC was established. Now the purpose of citizenship at that point didn't suddenly change to only big contributions get you citizenship, or simplified as citizenship = award. I would suggest that it's worded like that because if you put "Posting members", then modders or people that don't so heavily post don't get considered. It was meant to be vague to give leverage for all scenarios going. However over time this has become to be literally taken as "contributing" big things. Over time this has become more pronounced.
Why is it a concern, and why do a number of other Administrators support this action? I think we all have slightly differing reasons, but for me, I feel the Curia could be more welcoming. I think it is vital to it. I think it's obvious not enough citizens are being created to cover natural losses over time. People drop off forums - it's a natural cycle nay? If the numbers of active posters aren't replaced, there aren't citizens out there setting an example of good posting practices. It limits Magistrate election applicants as numbers dwindle. Users must be citizens to be considered for a role as a Moderator. As numbers go down, choices and options dwindle. There are a large number of different forums and interests on the site and all areas should be better represented. I think this amendment will help that too as it's more a reminder for people that perhaps users around them in forums they post in regularly could be brought into citizenship. This is how it was like "back in the day" as you say. The range of reasons people were made citizens was varied. Some were made not because they had done much of note even in posting terms, but because they needed to be vetted for potential future use in staff, for example. Anyone regularly posting and not being a moron to other users had a chance to become a citizen. Who could say that is the case now in reality? Not hypothetically, in reality? Take this example. Simetrical fitted the bill before he became a citizen as a regular poster in the way I just described. He's arguably one of the most important people to have been an Administrator in the sites history. Now take away all he did in staff and go back to before he became a citizen. If someone like that came up today would they be made a citizen? No they wouldn't. He would never have entered staff either as a result if that had happened. Now who are we missing out there? Who are we potentially putting off trying to engage more with the site by putting the citizenship bar way too high? Anyone you see out there, anyone being helpful, friendly, or perhaps just a thoroughly decent chap could be someone who might add massive value to this community if they're made to feel welcome.
If you want to see what the best job the Curia can do is, it's making new citizens. You have to think outside the box a bit to see why making citizens is so important in the system we have now and how it can add great value if regular, friendly and helpful members are citizens. Citizens whether they've re-invented the modding wheel or not. This is why I think a lot of the other Admin's have been drawn to this one. It is definitely in the interests of the community and site that more citizens are made. We will have continually falling numbers of citizens until something changes.
Last edited by Omnipotent-Q; February 19, 2014 at 07:44 PM.
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