Military Reforms Discusion

[Honors Bastion]

A new thread to discuss any potential changes that we may make to our military system.

Skjoldr's Quote on Retinues

Actually, guys, I'd rather change military completely. Let's make the levies much smaller and with less 'heavy units', and place a focus on a modified 'professional' system, to represent the shifting population movements of this time. People aren't sitting around in one place like they do in stratified serfdom; invasion, migrations, and other movements are constantly occuring. I suggest a "Retinue system" where a character gathers soldiers to him/her through points - perhaps based on some system like 'fame' or 'prestige'? I hate having 'locked-in levies', especially in this kind of setting. It's just wrong to apply such a stratified system to a time of movement like this. Unit naming conventions should be like this, for example: Andals: Mounted Knights Noble-born or raised to this status, the Knight is a member of the elite warrior class, chosen by the Seven-Pointed Star to fight and lead the people from horseback. It is their duty to excel in warfare and mounted combat, and their right to have others attend to and serve them. Mounted Retainers Unknighted but noble-born, Mounted Retainers are the followers of a powerful noble, chieftain, or lord, and fight from horseback as he does. Servant/Household Spearmen The followers and non-noble retainers who fight on foot; While nobles often adore the sword, the veteran warrior prefers the spear, considering its conventional and versatile nature. Foot Warriors Brave, fierce, and eager, are the young, anxious to prove their worth to their leaders and to the Seven-Pointed Star. Also, when reading about Lombard migrations, there's this thing called 'Faramanni'; Some of you may recognize it from some Barbarian Invasion era TW mods: It's actually a system by which certain kings of certain tribes got willing followers to go and migrate, to go on campaign; The 'Faramanni' warriors were promised land grants when they were victorious and found a new homeland. I like the sound of 'Andal Pioneers'. ------------------------------------------------------------------ For a timeline, I suggest this: When making the New Year Thread, we title it, for example: "5th Year of the 450th Summer (1500 BL)" In common usage besides, we would write "5th Year of the 450th Summer". I don't see how else the Andals would keep track of time; a "post-Invasion" timeline convention seems unlikely considering the exact events were never recorded (Maesters cannot even agree on the Invasion date, some saying 4000 years ago and others saying 6000 years ago).

Oznerol's Quote on Retinues

Now I'm able to elaborate a little more my thoughts on military matters, before I was on the phone, so... When Martin speaks about 'knighthood', leather shields and horse warriors with the Andal invasion I can clearly envison a carolingian setting. Charlemagne did extensive campaigns in Saxony, cutting down their godswoods and holy trees, converting them to christianity, which clearly has parallels with the setting why seemingly chose. Thus we could inspire ourselves with the military of that time, and how was warfare understood. First we should have heavy cavalry, scarce and limited to the Lord's retinue, his retainers, but still swift and agile, not like the thunderous french knights of Agincourt that were the ones we are used to in GoT. They are more versatile, as there are some evidence that they could throw javelins in short range, so they could be used to harass the first ranks of the enemy. They are the most valuable troop. Also of note is that the should be only ones wielding swords. In a setting as this, swords were incredibly costly (Sotha must know it as he loves Dark Ages), more likely if we think when Andals arrive the First Men had bronze, that seriously ar very fit to make swords. Maybe Andals should have more swordsmen, fewer the First Men (who would have less iron and smiths avalaible), but always heavy troops. Then a maybe larger, and profesional, corps, armoured and fighting on horse, shields, lances, javelins, sort like of light cavalry capable of fighting most of the infantry troops, but unable to break the line like the lord's retainers. The bulk of the army, however would be the peasantry, one able to armour themselves a little (maybe boiled leather, nothing more) and arm themselves better. But always spearmen, or maybe axemen for the First Men. Then we should add javalineers, they were pretty usual in the battlefield. Of course we should get rid of every crossbowmen, that would be anachronistic, as is plate; the best armour we should be able to afford is a mail hauberks... To sum it all: -Retainers: Standing troops, elite, horse, sword and spear, armoured (scale, mail, leather), shield. However they should have an upkeep (mix of our Household Guards and men-at-arms, standing but also a bit costly). Bigger the demesne/realm/lordship bigger their numbers. Bonus to charge, and when unmounted acting as elite infantry. -Cavalrymen: Lighter, less armoured, spear, javelin, shield. Swift and deadly. -Spearmen: Spear and shield. But of the army. -Axemen (for First Men maybe? they could use bronze axes) -Archers -Javalineers However all would change with the setting if 100 after the Invasion carolingian times are perfect for inspiration, but for a millenia later we should check ottonid IX-X century military. If you want a good overview to all of this you should read The Great Invasions preview of East Francia, even if a bit later they did a trully good joob researching the carolingian military. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...cia-Orientalis ------ The cities' foundationsounds trully good, however that could be a chain of buildings, or need some requirements. I think we should add something about ploughs and increasing the farmable fields, as we don't have anything about crops and feeding the peasantry (maybe there should be a risk of suffering hunger of famine)...

Honors Bastion's Quote on Retinue/Reworked Naval System

@Sotha I agree with how we are going to do the timeline. I really don’t think there is another way to do it than the one you have suggested. As for a retinue system, it makes sense for this era in Westerosi history. Warfare, battles, and the exchanging of land between various petty kings were probably a lot more common in this era than in alter periods of Westerosi history and it would make sense to have lrods/kings rely more on standing armies than levies. I may have an idea for how we can implement this sort of thing by using a points system. My original intention for a points system was to try to figure out how naval levies would work in this era. I doubt that there was enough organization at this time in most of the provinces to have a system of naval levies created and so I thought that maybe it would be better to attach the size of your fleet/fleets toward having a specific building constructed in the Bull’s Ware Thread. Each of the dockyard Tier buildings would provide a certain amount of points that a player could use to create a navy. The composition of said navy would be completely dependent on how the player decides to distribute his or her naval points using the following system. New Naval System Buildings: Dockyard: +10% income, gives 100 naval points Large Dockyard: 5% cheaper naval mercs, +5% income, gives 150 naval points (cumulative 250 points) Major Dockyard: 10% cheaper naval mercs, +5% income, provides 250 naval points (cumulative 500 points total) Military Port: 10% cheaper naval mercs. Provides 500 naval points Ships from this region can move 15 rather than 10 Hexes per day: for RP purposes your ships can be regarded as of superior construction giving them a speed bonus over other ships as their well-crafted hulls break the waves more efficiently. Standard Ships: Levy Ship: 1 point Can sail in rivers Dromond: 2 points Heavy Galley: 4 points Grand Warship: 10 points AOR Ships: Lannister Carrack: 5 points Oldtown War Galley: 5 points Dornish Dromond: 5 points Stormbreaker Ships: 5 points Narrow Sea Galleon: 5 points Riverrun Riverboat: 5 points Can sail in rivers Sisterton Pirate Ships: 5 points White Harbour Warship: 5 points Ironborn Warship: 5 points Can sail in rivers So a player with one Tier 1 dockyard has a total of 100 naval points at his disposal. He can decide to have a really large but cheap fleet of 100 levy ships or a powerful but small fleet of 10 Grand Warships. How many points each building tier provides and how many points each ship is worth can be debated on and the Ironborn would probably get an increased allotment of points per dockyard tier to represent their inclination towards the sea. I can probably create a similar system for a Land retinue based on the same concept, except maybe with it having a base on the size of a players’ realm and not on buildings, say a High Lordships gives 2,000 Retinue points while a Minor Lordship gives 500 Retinue points with maybe modifiers that increase the number of points available to you based on your prestige/fame level.

[Lucius Malfoy]

Personally, I like Skjoldr's more so in terms of Retinues.

This is mainly due to the fact of its simplicity. Not hard for the mods to remember the stats of four simple units.

Though not sure why where isn't a ranged unit.

And I do like the naval system you proposed HB.

[Dirty Chai]

The units I actually specified were just examples to show the 'style' we should go for.
I'm pretty much in line with Oz; His concept just needs simplifying, but otherwise it's good.

[Lucius Malfoy]

I think if we dropped Javalineers and Axemen from that list, Oz's proposed idea will be a good one.

I think all we would need is the retainers, knights and the footmen (being regular infantry and archers).

[Dirty Chai]

If you mean for base types, yeah.

Retainers can be the heavy units, mounted & dismounted;
Knights the elites as always, mounted (but dismount-able);
Footmen are anything from veterans to fresh-faced recruits.

What about First Men?
Same format with some renaming and strategic differences?
We know that the First Men used cavalry just as much as the Andals, but I imagine First Men tactics to be a bit like the Gallic use of cavalry, if one agrees with the First Men = Celts analogy.
If one does consider them a bit like Celts, I imagine the elites in their fielded armies would 'Champions' (British Campwyr anyone?).
Could be mounted at times, but not knights.

Point is: Should we have the two cultures have tactical & military differences or be pretty much the same in effect?
(The differences being RP'd societal differences, such as no mounted warrior class in First Men society).

[Xion]

I personally would prefer to see HB's naval system be applied to the land armies, I feel it allows for the most creative potential in army creation. For example, if I decide to play a realm in the Kingswood, I may want elite archers and spearmen over heavy infantry or cavalry. So I spend more points on archers and spearmen, with fewer heavy troops instead of having my entire retinue be heavy troops. (I'm probably misunderstanding the retinue proposals in this example. If so, I apologize)

I suppose there should be some difference in the culture.

[Oznerol]

Glad you like it.

Yes it would need some simplifying, because I tend to recreate myself with details and such. But yes, javalineers and axemen could be eliminated from that list.

Retainers are fundamental I think in a setting like this.

[Wheatley]

I feel that when a kingdom is formed, that is when they have settled and we should go to having normal levies or HB's point system with maybe a different roster.

Edit: Up until then, another system can be used.

[Poach]

There's no need to alter the land units we have now, you're overcomplicating the issue. The naval unit point system is a fair way to show the settlement of new coasts but there's absolutely no reason to rework the land unit roster. Doing that will trigger a complete rework of battles, levies and balance. That's far too much work for aesthetic gains: if you want to call your troops fancy names do that, but we'll be here for weeks changing all these rules because people have gotten over-excited over a very simple sandbox restart.

All we need is a map (done), basic rules governing gaining new land (done - stability) and basic stability alterations (done).

We're good to go now.

[Lucius Malfoy]

However, Poach, the current military list doesn't reflect this earlier time period. It just doesn't add up.

There wouldn't be such a variety of soldiers in the early days of the Andal Kingdoms of Westeros.

The military we currently have listed doesn't reflect well for this period. I mean, its not like we are adding twice as many units. We are actually simplifying it pretty well.

[Dirty Chai]

Here then, Poach:

At the base here, we're trying to change how armies are built.
It's still primarily attached to land, as all pre-modern societies are, but money is also primarily tied to land ownership in this game (hence Professionals are out of the question for small Kingdoms) which seriously limits the opportunities for smaller kingdoms.
the "Retinue system" we keep mentioning would basically be akin to Professionals, but not so expensive, and not only bought with money.

[Trot]

The way I see it Andals would have heavier cav and better armored troops.

First men would be more numerous but lighter armored. We actually get to see how early firstmen fight when martian describes beyond the wall witch I believe is how much of Westros would have been before they began adapting to Andal customs.

[Honors Bastion]

Naval Recruitment System:
We will now be using a new system to construct our navies on. Instead of a naval levy system, we shall be using a point system where players can decide the composition of their fleets. Each coastal province will provide a base of 250 points for a player/kingdom to use for their navy with Ironborn provinces providing a base of 350 points. The player is free distribute the points however they feel like it but they must follow some specific guidelines that are illustrated below.


Standard Ships:

• Levy Ship: 5 point
  
  • Can sail in rivers
  
  
• Dromond: 10 points
• Heavy Galley: 15 points
• AOR Ship: 20 points
• Grand Warship: 25 points

AOR Ships:

• Lannister Carrack: 20 points
• Oldtown War Galley: 20 points
• Dornish Dromond: 20 points
• Stormbreaker Ships: 20 points
• Narrow Sea Galleon: 20 points
• Riverrun Riverboat: 20 points
  
  • Can sail in rivers
  
  
• Sisterton Pirate Ships: 20 points
• White Harbour Warship: 20 points
• Ironborn Warship: 20 points
  
  • Can sail in rivers

Point Restrictions:

• AOR ships cannot take up more than 25% of your total point allotment.
• Grand Warships cannot take up more than 10% of your total point allotment.

A player is free to change his fleet composition in between but do note that your fleet will be unavailable for use for 3 RL days after the composition has been changed. This does not apply if you acquire new points and create new ships using only the new points.

A player who resides in a coastal province can increase his or her naval point allotment by constructing the following buildings.

Dockyard: +10% income, gives 100 naval points
Large Dockyard: 5% cheaper naval mercs, +5% income, gives 150 naval points (cumulative 250 points)
Major Dockyard: 10% cheaper naval mercs, +5% income, provides 250 naval points (cumulative 500 points total)
Military Port: 10% cheaper naval mercs. Provides 500 naval points Ships from this region can move 15 rather than 10 Hexes per day: for RP purposes your ships can be regarded as of superior construction giving them a speed bonus over other ships as their well-crafted hulls break the waves more efficiently.

Example

If a player has an allotment of 500 points, he can easily choose to make a large but weak fleet of 100 levy ships or create a small but powerful fleet of 2 Grand Warships, 6 AOR Ships, and 22 War Galleys.

[Trot]

I like everything but the AOR warships. As new regions/kingdoms can emerge right now. We could see kingdoms that encompass many regions the dejure lines haven't really been drawn yet. No one holds the power. I would prefer an elite class the play can rp as an aor ship. No need to specify.

[Honors Bastion]

The AOR ships are remnants from our current unit list. An AOR ship is simply the second best tier of warships that a player can control. How you call the AOR Warships is your decision.

[Trot]

OK I get that but why are you limiting only certain regions to having elite river boats. What is stopping another kingdom from deciding they need strong river boats for whatever reason?

[Honors Bastion]

OK I get that but why are you limiting only certain regions to having elite river boats. What is stopping another kingdom from deciding they need strong river boats for whatever reason?

The reasons stem both from lore and from geography. Only the Ironborn and the Riverlands have ever been mentioned of having watercraft that can sail through rivers. None of the other regions have that lore justification and if you look at it geographically, the only other region that might be capable of such a thing would be the Reach. They are the only ones who have major rivers traversing their countryside (The Mander and the Honeywine) that goo deep within their heartland.

If you want strong river-navigable ships so badly, than either be an Ironborn or be a Riverlander. If you don't want to be them than you must settle for the levy ships.

[Xion]

Dorne, well...post-Rhoynar Dorne has the Orphans of the Greenblood with their ships, but that doesn't apply here unless the First Men/Andals there have small barges for transport on the Greenblood?

[Honors Bastion]

Except all the Ironborn territory is taken now, unless Trot wants to be a vassal to one of the three vying Ironborn Kings.

I know. I was just mentioning his options if he wanted powerful river-navigable warships. I never he said he was going to be able to play a independent lord since all of the coastal Riverlands and Ironborn provinces are under someone else's control.

Dorne, well...post-Rhoynar Dorne has the Orphans of the Greenblood with their ships, but that doesn't apply here unless the First Men/Andals there have small barges for transport on the Greenblood?

Oh, I forgot about the Greensblood. That could give the Dornish a geographic reason for river-navigable warships.

[Lucius Malfoy]

Except all the Ironborn territory is taken now, unless Trot wants to be a vassal to one of the three vying Ironborn Kings.