Nephilim

[Hawkus Africanus]

I am trying to start a serious discussion here about the Nephilim (the word for Giants in KJV) that appears in some translations of the Bible. So, what I'm asking is that if you cannot contribute anything other than criticism to the Bible or how stupid religion is than please don't post here. With that said, I've done further study of this intriguing topic (well at least I find it intriguing) from the un-cannonized Book of Enoch, and I must say that fills in a lot of the gaps about these peculiar beings.

However, I want to open this discussion to what you think the Bible is trying to say about them. Are they just tall people, or symbolic for man's sins or did Fallen Angels co-habitate with the daughters of man? Also, why do you think this is mentioned in the Bible in first place?

[Dromikaites]

The mentioning of the Nephilim in the Old testament is too obscure for anyone to be sure what it means. The so called first book of Enoch doesn't exactly shed any light on the matter either (It's worth mentioning the Ethiopian Christian Church considers it canonical even though scientists believe the text was probably written in the final form during the first two centuries AD). So you can take your pick:
1. The Nephilim were the Neaderthal men;
2. The Nephilim were some invaders comming from Northern Europe, who looked as giants to the shorter people of the Mediterana;
3. The Nephilim were the result of aliens interbreeding with humans;
4. [Insert yout theory here]

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

hmmm...many people have their stories/adventures about Nephilim as you call them.Considering reference to Bible, wernt they like children of Angels? Crossbreed or something...

Who knows..maybe humans were much larger in past...for some couple thousand years ago all manner of creatures were much larger than today...I heared it was becouse of oxygen.Why was everthing SO LARGE in the past...from mamuths to all other creatures?

[mrjesushat]

I'd always interpreted the phrase, "There were giants (nephilim) in the earth in those days, and also after that..." to mean something similar to the Greek notion of heroes being a cut above or a step beyond normal, mortal men. Nephilim would in this understanding be men who were of great significance and in some measure heroic. The idea of the "sons of god" mating with mortal women is not dissimilar to the Greco-Roman mythological notion of deities impregnating otherwise unremarkable women.

This has always seemed reasonable to my mind because it would be hard to believe that Judaic monotheism was not heavily influenced by the much more pervasive polytheisms that were contemporary with its origins.

[Hawkus Africanus]

The mentioning of the Nephilim in the Old testament is too obscure for anyone to be sure what it means. The so called first book of Enoch doesn't exactly shed any light on the matter either (It's worth mentioning the Ethiopian Christian Church considers it canonical even though scientists believe the text was probably written in the final form during the first two centuries AD). So you can take your pick:
1. The Nephilim were the Neaderthal men;
2. The Nephilim were some invaders comming from Northern Europe, who looked as giants to the shorter people of the Mediterana;
3. The Nephilim were the result of aliens interbreeding with humans;
4. [Insert yout theory here]

How doesn't Enoch shed light on the topic when it says that the "sons of God" were fallen angels (watchers)? However, I am not saying that I totaly believe that nor completely comprehend, but something occurred that reinforced God's anger. After all it is mentioned in Genesis.

I'd always interpreted the phrase, "There were giants (nephilim) in the earth in those days, and also after that..." to mean something similar to the Greek notion of heroes being a cut above or a step beyond normal, mortal men. Nephilim would in this understanding be men who were of great significance and in some measure heroic. The idea of the "sons of god" mating with mortal women is not dissimilar to the Greco-Roman mythological notion of deities impregnating otherwise unremarkable women.

Possible, but I do think the point of the Nephilim is to reinforce mans sin by not turning to God, but immersion into sin.

hmmm...many people have their stories/adventures about Nephilim as you call them.Considering reference to Bible, wernt they like children of Angels? Crossbreed or something...

Yes, if you analyze the intent of the Hebrew nephilim means fallen ones esentually. So with that, some scholars believe that the 'daughters of man' co-habitated with the fallen angels or demons who were cast down to earth. Some even claim that this is where a lot of mythology came to be during this period. Of course it is just a claim.

Who knows..maybe humans were much larger in past...for some couple thousand years ago all manner of creatures were much larger than today...I heared it was becouse of oxygen.Why was everthing SO LARGE in the past...from mamuths to all other creatures?

According to some biblical scientist and secular scientist, we did indeed have more oxygen, and the atmosphere we live in now is like being in 20,000 ft above sealevel for people then. I guess the airpressure then was a lot stronger or something like that.

Good stuff guys thanks.

[removeduser_487563287433]

The Bible explicitely states they are the decendants of the sons of God who bred with mortal women. Since the OP's bold text forbids what it forbids, I cannot continue to discuss what I have to say about that.

[Manji]

Well, let's see, you can either a) stick to the information presented in the Bible or b) speculate based on the information in the Bible or c) speculate without any basis.

I'd rather go with A; The Nephilim were the offspring of angels with female humans and appeared to have been different from the general human population and another aggravation towards God.

Just another note: the Book of Enoch isn't accept as part of the Catholic Canon of Holy Books and is considered apocryphal.

[Hawkus Africanus]

Just another note: the Book of Enoch isn't accept as part of the Catholic Canon of Holy Books and is considered apocryphal.

I understand that, and know that. However, in Jesus' day some of his disciples quoted from it as well as Jesus himself. I'm not saying Enoch is necessarily divine scripture, but it should have some credibility.

[Manji]

I understand that, and know that.

Thanks.

However, in Jesus' day some of his disciples quoted from it as well as Jesus himself. I'm not saying Enoch is necessarily divine scripture, but it should have some credibility.

Er... i'm not doubting you or anything but I can't seem to recall reading a bit about them quoting the Book of Enoch, post a link to specific part if you will.

[Søren]

I understand that, and know that. However, in Jesus' day some of his disciples quoted from it as well as Jesus himself. I'm not saying Enoch is necessarily divine scripture, but it should have some credibility.

As Manji said, to the best of my knowledge that is not true.

[MoROmeTe]

And the description of them as giants is probably because of the unfailing tendency of any threatened group of people to maximize the offensive/threatening qualities of the would be assailant so as to rally the group on the defense...

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

Have any of you watched Gods Army? After reading this thread I remembred that movie...was cool movie.

Referance to giants can be found in any culture...who knows people who have that bone disorder might have sprung all giant talk.Also as mrjesushat has said, people used to refer to heroic/significant individuals as giants.I know that was and is common in my native language.(Bosnian)

[Amos Terrapin]

I believe Enoch is quoted in the first chapter of Jude. I will post the specific verses after I get home. Hopefully, that will point you in the right direction at least. I don't necessarily think Enoch should be cannonical but I think the fact that it is mentioned in the New Testament warrants a quick read.

Manji is right in saying that theories on the Nephilim are largely extra-biblical. It's fun to speculate though. I think many ideas in mythology came from this pre-flood people. The book of Enoch shows many of God's higher angels coming down and mating with women on earth. These angels revealed "secrets of heaven" like mining, music ect...perhaps this is where the idea of a patron god of (fill in the blank). So and so the greek god of such and such. Further legends could have come from the offspring - Hercules (demigod). Sorry I'm rambling - just my 2 cents.

[Manji]

[QUOTE=Amos Terrapin]I believe Enoch is quoted in the first chapter of Jude.QUOTE]

I tink you might mean:

Jude 1:14-15 :

"14: Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15: to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Well, I think it's a bit farfetched to attribute to Enoch a whole book on the count of him having been said to have prophesized something. More, the prophesy he made is clearly stated in verse 15.

By the way, for those of you interested, here's the Book of Enoch online.

[Ummon]

The Book of Enoch is canonic in Ethiopia, for example. In the Ethiopian Enoch you can read that the Nephilim were cross-breeds between angels and men, produced by a sort of revolt of angels against God which succeeded that of Satan. Nephilim have been destroyed and they remain buried under earth as evil spirits.

I would refrain from believing myths though.

[Amos Terrapin]

Manji,
You're very right. The reference in Jude doesn't prove the Book of Enoch is valid. I'm not sure if it is or not. It is a very interesting read though and has much directly relating to the Nephilim. Also, in Enoch it expressly says that the book was written "for a remote generation". Just another interesting note I guess.

I noticed your link is from heaven.net Manji. Do you ever use the forums on that site? There are some interesting and unique topics there.

[Manji]

Manji,
You're very right. The reference in Jude doesn't prove the Book of Enoch is valid. I'm not sure if it is or not. It is a very interesting read though and has much directly relating to the Nephilim. Also, in Enoch it expressly says that the book was written "for a remote generation". Just another interesting note I guess.

I noticed your link is from heaven.net Manji. Do you ever use the forums on that site? There are some interesting and unique topics there.

No, I just googled for Book of Enoch;
there are some apocryphal works that are very interesting, namely the Book of Enoch, which became known to most people after Dan Brown published the Da Vinci Code where he had a Opus Dei Bishop stating that "Noah was an albino", a notion far from any catholic dogma but expressed in the Book of Enoch:

Enoch 1 106:2 :

"1
And after some days my son Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became
2
pregnant by him and bore a son. And his body was white as snow and red as the blooming of a rose, and the hair of his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes beautiful."


Here's another interesting site:

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/enoch5.html

[Hawkus Africanus]

I am posting a link that has scripture comparison. I haven't checked them all out, nor do I support this site. I just saw the scripture comparison and found it interesting, but enverything I have found on the book of Enoch is that it was a respected work before and during and somewhat after Jesus' day. Some sources say that everytime Jesus was saying "Son of man" he was taking that from Enoch which mentions it a lot. Other sources claim that some disciples and Jesus quoted from Enoch. All you have to do is Google the subject and start reading away. I am at work, and then after that directing a play after, so I will post a link of the comparison http://stargods.org/EnochQuoted.htm then I can post more links about disciples and Jesus quoting from Enoch.

Again, I do not support the site, just thought the comparison was interesting. I am sure it will fuel this discussion.

[War Bringer]

Well, considering that the bible states that Goliath was between 10-12 feet tall, it is possible that there were more people of this size at an earlier time.

[Ummon]

Enoch's vision is a vision of the mystic quaternity. The topos of the four rivers, the four cherubs (one with a human face), the throne on the sapphire floor, is universal in a certain type of mystical visions. I am not going to enter details on this of course.