Post-Andal Invasion Start Date

[Honors Bastion]

For this sandbox restart of ours, one of the most important things that we need to decide is what will be the actual start date that our game begins at. This is important because things like technology, culture and religion spread, and the existence of major fortifications etc.

From what I can tell, we have roughly three obvious start dates to go upon

Date 1: One or tow years after the invasion when the Vale completely fell to the Andals. Most of the population would still probably be First Men, save for the Vale being heavily Andal, and the Faith of the Seven would not have a very secure hold in Westeros and it may be easily pushed back or destroyed by the Faith of the Old Gods. Weaponry would have First Men using bronze weapons while the Andals would use Iron ones.

Date 2: Start date is one century after the Andal Invasion. There would be a lot more Andal culture spread from the Vale, but I would estimate that the spread would be no more than maybe 30% to 40% of the population (not including the North or the Iron Islands which are still First Men dominated). The Faith of the Seven would probably have a more secure foundation in Westeros but it still would still be fairly weak compared to the Old Gods. The First Men would still primarily use Bronze weaponry but it would not take long for them to change to Iron weapons.

Date 3: 500 years after the invasion. Andal and First Men culture would be very spread out with Andal culture probably being more than First Men in most locations outside of the North and the Iron Islands. At this time, the metals for weapons would be on the same level and the Faith of the Seven would have a more secure hold on the land, being relative power to the Old Gods South of the Neck.

Edit:

Note, these are only my suggested dates and anyone is free to suggest an entirely new date for us to start with. A poll will be added alter after palyers are given a chnace to debate things.

Once we have a start date, we can change things like military, buildings, and other cultural things to fit our timeframe.

[Trot]

I like date 2. Note in dates 2 and maybe 3 the riverlands would still probably have a strong firstman culture. However date 1 would be really interesting to see how players react and it will allow for lot more petty kingdoms.

[Ganbarenippon]

I largely agree with Trot's assessment here. 2 would seem to offer the better balance with 1 being the most "Sandbox" and 3 making for a more stable game with more "knowns". Option 2 for me, followed by option 1.

[Lucius Malfoy]

Tough call...I like option 1 for the sandbox more so than option 2. But option 2 has the balance. I may have to go with...option 2 as well.

[Trot]

We could balance 1 by having turnly rolls for andal warriors to arrive on the shores of Westeros. As it is still early in the invasion more soldiers could continue to arrive. And 1 give us a much better sandbox experience. However I am for both 1 and 2 both could allow for a lot to happen in game.

[Oznerol]

The third option clearly is the one where the Westeros we know is more easily noticed, however that maybe is it's greatest fault and greatest benefit, where Houses, stances, ideas, cultures are more easily recognizable and playable. However the second perhaps is more interesting, as is a clash of cultures, civilizations, where anything is set on stone. I would pick either the second or the third, while I won't like really like the first, which sounds too indeterminate as the Andals would not have such a power base and the clash could be less than expected.

The second is clearly the most balanced one.

[Lucius Malfoy]

The third option clearly is the one where the Westeros we know is more easily noticed, however that maybe is it's greatest fault and greatest benefit, where Houses, stances, ideas, cultures are more easily recognizable and playable. However the second perhaps is more interesting, as is a clash of cultures, civilizations, where anything is set on stone. I would pick either the second or the third, while I won't like really like the first, which sounds too indeterminate as the Andals would not have such a power base and the clash could be less than expected.

The second is clearly the most balanced one.

However that is what makes option 1 very likeable. Mainly because there is that chance we will lose, that chance we won't survive. It adds a challenge to the game, where as option 3 doesn't really add much of a challenge. I mean pretty much if both cultures are evened out, Andals will eventually prevail due to their Iron weapons and growing population. However, option 1, First Men still have numbers. Option 1 and 2 present challenges whereas option 3, not so much unless we make it up.

[Oznerol]

Partly agreed.

But how we would represent objectivily the upper hand of iron weapons? +rolls? Bad luck with dices could wipe out that superiority.

[Honors Bastion]

I like date 2. Note in dates 2 and maybe 3 the riverlands would still probably have a strong firstman culture. However date 1 would be really interesting to see how players react and it will allow for lot more petty kingdoms.

I would think that the Riverlands and the Reach might actually have higher chances for being Andal culture than the other ones. They don't have too many physical barriers besides some possible rivers to prevent a wide scale spread of people. Now pockets of First men Culture is still possible but it would make more sense for Andals to spread where it is easiest first before heading to the harder to reach places.

However that is what makes option 1 very likeable. Mainly because there is that chance we will lose, that chance we won't survive. It adds a challenge to the game, where as option 3 doesn't really add much of a challenge. I mean pretty much if both cultures are evened out, Andals will eventually prevail due to their Iron weapons and growing population. However, option 1, First Men still have numbers. Option 1 and 2 present challenges whereas option 3, not so much unless we make it up.

This is basically my whole reasoning for supporting Date 2. It has the most balance among the three named dates and it gives us the best chance for sometihng different then expected to happen.

Partly agreed.

But how we would represent objectivily the upper hand of iron weapons? +rolls? Bad luck with dices could wipe out that superiority.

Easiest and cleanest ways to do this would be to give them +1 or +2 to battle rolls to represent the greater effectiveness of the weapons. You cannot do anything about the bad luck with the rolls. It's going to happen no matter what we do about the weapons.

[Wheatley]

According to the Wiki, it took hundreds of years for the Andals to successfully invade Westeros. It took them two thousand years to reach the Iron Islands :S

So one hundred years after the invasion might have been a bit early for Andals to be in the position that is described, and then most of the First Men probably have not come into contact with them yet.

[Trot]

Riverlands was the last place to fall Lore Wise not sure why. But it survived untill the six Andal kingdoms killed off Mudd.

[jacb547]

Well the Riverlands were still First Men for at least a couple hundred years since House Mudd ruled the entire Riverlands as first men, the Vale, Stormlands and Crownlands probably assimilated a lot quicker. Anyway I vote for option 2 since it seems the most balanced and option has the whole mythic beginning thing I'd rather not delve into.

[Ganbarenippon]

I would say that after 100 years, The Vale is firmly in the grip of the Andals. In and of itself that provides a very secure foothold for the invaders. I would say the East/Northern Crownlands would be very heavily populated with Andals too. The shores of the Sea of Dorne, and perhaps Sunspear might also boast Andal enclaves. The Stormlands too. I imagine the Andal lands in this period as a large 9 covering the central and southern East coast of Westeros with a bulge where the Vale and Crownlands are. Then there being a buffer zone of mixed ethnicities centred on the Eastern Riverlands, Rayonet and the Central Crownlands and puching further West. The majority if the Westerlands, and the Reach would still be First Men, but with gradual Andal encroachment, especially along the fertile river valleys, the Trident, Blackwater and upper Mander would make for interesting flashpoints. In Dorne, I would imagine they would just hug the coast, not having really adapted to the harsh environment yet.

[Xion]

I support option 2 for all the reasons stated in better wording that I probably could. Option 1 would be next for the sandbox chance.

As for Dorne..I'd probably say the Broken Arm, Vaith, and Stoneway being Andal, Red Mountains, Red Pass, and the desert being first men?

[Ganbarenippon]

Ghost Hills as Andal too, perhaps Vaith as a melting-pot/flashpoint area? Even more vital given it offers control of freshwater in a desert! I would say Stoneway would be another melting pot/flashpoint, the geography making it harder to dislodge the First Men there.

[Xion]

Ghost Hills as Andal too, perhaps Vaith as a melting-pot/flashpoint area? Even more vital given it offers control of freshwater in a desert! I would say Stoneway would be another melting pot/flashpoint, the geography making it harder to dislodge the First Men there.

I agree with you on this. Vaith and Stoneway could be a good place for a player who wants to try a merged culture house to be.

[Trot]

the general consensus right now seems to be 2. Unless any one has any really serious objections we should start building on that time frame.

[Poach]

Option 3. Unless we agree to ignore the cultural issues or someone produces a good ruleset for it that's both comprehensive and not burdensome.

[Lucius Malfoy]

Guys, all this talk of culture and where the Andals landed will only complicate the options. All we know is that the Andals is that they invaded the Vale and spread from there. We don't know if they landed in the Stormlands by sea. If they touched the Dorne or anything. If we make culture, melting pot and other detailed rules involving that category, it will make this roleplay more complicated than it is.

Simplicity makes it better, on both the players and moderation staff. We are already making this setting more sandbox than any other setting before in this rpg's history. That's gonna be a big enough overhaul for the mods just for the rules we need to make.

Now if a mod disagrees with me, then I will drop my statement.

[Honors Bastion]

Guys, all this talk of culture and where the Andals landed will only complicate the options. All we know is that the Andals is that they invaded the Vale and spread from there. We don't know if they landed in the Stormlands by sea. If they touched the Dorne or anything. If we make culture, melting pot and other detailed rules involving that category, it will make this roleplay more complicated than it is.

Simplicity makes it better, on both the players and moderation staff. We are already making this setting more sandbox than any other setting before in this rpg's history. That's gonna be a big enough overhaul for the mods just for the rules we need to make.

Now if a mod disagrees with me, then I will drop my statement.

No, I do agree with you LM. There are a lot of potential changes that need to be made to our rules set for this setting to be successful and the fact that this setting will require a lot more interaction from the mod team, it may be for the better if whatever we do with the cultural stuff be made as simple as possible, of we do anything with it at all.