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  1. #1
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default The Holy Grail of Human Society

    Here is a piece that will open thine eyes to the true source of it all:

    The mixture of a mind boils down to two essential ingredients, society and nature. These two conflicting forces define the two sides of a man: what he shows to other people, and what he is to himself. The cover is never the man. It is just that, a cover. The cover should never define the man. Society instills the cover and represses the nature. That is the true struggle that man is faced with as an individual. Man is born with nature, but raised through society. That interminable struggle decides everything in life. Society tames the nature, but it does not suppress it. It lies dormant and it will awaken. Once it awakens, man is given two choices: to persist suppressing, or to subject to his nature. To decide one over the other will define the man. Suppressing will perpetuate the struggle. Subjecting will begin the process to end it.

    Whatever man is born with, man retains. Nature is intrinsic and instinctive in the composition of man. But it is society, and not nature, that ends up shaping and defining the man. Why the paradox? To understand, one has to search for the root cause. Society creates meaning. It created the meaning of every single thing known to man and will continue doing so as long as it exists. It is up to the individual to react to the meaning and apply it to his nature. Nature will remain unchanged, for nature cannot identify meaning, it just exists as it is. The paradox, however, lies not in the fact that these two forces are any different, but in that they are one and the same. Society’s birth giver is nature. It mirrors it. From the first trace of civilization, society has been molded by nature’s struggle to perpetuate itself.

    There in lies the source of every complex, of every tragedy, and of every struggle known to man, for if love and life be matters of perpetuity, humans would not weep over love’s break and life’s end. If nature were unlimited, then society would not place limits on the mind. The mortality of all things molds human society. It reflects the very nature that forbids the immortality of the individual, for the individual, just as nature, wishes for an interminable future but, unlike nature, receives none of it. And thus, society molds nature accordingly to shade the disturbing truth of man’s fleeting life.

    In society, death is forbidden territory. It presents a crisis of thought that is insurmountable. When attempting to stare through its curtains, a cold stream of nothingness stares right back. That crisis penetrates in the deep chords of the human soul and makes the society of a man crumble, for society is nothing but an illusory blanket to continue the illusion of immortality. Although some animals may grasp the concept of death, man is different in that he fully understands death's implications through his imagination. The human mind was now capable of effecting change in the environment. Therefore, man sought to perfect his condition to make the transition of death less sufferable. Civilization was created out of that simple, yet disturbing necessity. It was created to better preserve man’s existence and to relieve him of the fact that although death would come, it would not come as quickly as before.

    Man continued his struggle by creating for himself an after-life within the limits of the imagination that he could possess at the time. The first instances of this leap came 30,000 years ago, when corpses of cavemen were buried with jewels, statues of deities, and other treasured items in the grasses of Gaul and Iberia. This change indicated that man had already imagined for himself an after-life and that the dead were being prepared to face it. But the most important leap, the start of a primitive form of morality, started at first in Egypt more than five thousand years ago, and then evolved in Babylon and Judeo-Christianity two to three thousand years later, when humans were led to believe that to reach the afterlife of salvation they had to perform a variety of deeds in life and live according to certain rules. If they ignored these edicts of ethics and morals, they would suffer, in the former’s religion, the extinction of their souls, and in the latter ones’, a place in the deep reservoirs of hell.

    This change of society meant that the limit between the physical and the mental had been breached. Society had now gained the ability to mold hundreds of thousands of people’s minds. People who followed and were forced to follow the tradition of religion regimented in themselves a set of boundaries of what to do and what not to do, even though many of these newly imposed limits defied the intrinsic nature of man. Man was no longer free in nature. He suppressed his own self in order to conform into society. The mind was a slave of society. Petty superstitions and poorly formed beliefs would fuel an imagination of uncertainty in the ancient man and devise illogical manifestos of religion and ethno-cultural antagonisms that would add barrier after barrier to the mind of an animal that was capable of suppressing instinct but incapable of extinguishing it.

    The two great molders of the mind and of society started more by chance than by planning. The first great molder of society began when humans felt a need to try and explain and express their existential situation. Man looked around for answers but could not give logical meaning to much of what he sensed around him. Imagine living four thousand years ago (or six hundred, for that matter), growing up without any pretense of science or of how the weather works, and seeing a thunderstorm in the works. How would one explain such an occurrence? One would look to the clouds and one would see what would appear to be a great fight of fire and sound. How else would one explain such majestic power without subjecting to the thought of magic or the supernatural? That is the human condition. That is how man created his first answers. He saw what was unexplainable and what was impossible with his own limitations, and he explained it all through the unexplainable source of all: god.

    God differed from civilization to civilization. Some civilizations and societies had dozens of gods while others’ had hundreds, but they all sought out to explain the same unexplainable things of nature. There was the god of war, the god of fire, the god of thunder, the god of the river, and so on, all created to give meaning to who we were and what we were doing on this earth. Satisfying these gods was an essential part in the every day life of the ancient man. If man was not praying, he was sacrificing for his beloved deities. If he was not sacrificing for them, he was building them monuments and temples.

    Then monotheism, through Akhenaton, was invented, and what a powerful god he made up. He created the god of all things. He was a god so powerful that all other gods created had to either subject to his power or become past false inventions of man. The god of Abraham was created from this new concept, and now society did not have to regiment itself by the morality of dozens of different deities, but by the morality of just one. A great leap in Western society began; a leap that has incarcerated the minds of entire populations for more than four thousand years. Starting in Egypt, it quickly disseminated to the Middle East. Although suffering setbacks in the Judaic form, it would ignite fire during the imperial Roman Empire when Christianity was born from a carpenter Jew. Christianity spread like wild fire after a few trivial decades, mostly because the empire suppressed its practice (what you suppress, you promote). Within three hundred years, it had become the official religion of the empire.

    The code of ethics and morality of modern-day Europe, the whole of the American continent, the Middle East, and parts of Africa are the result of a long struggle within the mind that originated with the creation of Akhenaton’s God. India, China, and most of the East Asian continent never suffered a revolution as extensive as the rest of the world in this respect. This is not to say that society has not placed limits on the mind of the Eastern man in the past. It has crossed the frontiers of the mind and suppressed nature before, but the concept of a singular god was never applied to the philosophy of Eastern cultures. Hinduism and Buddhism, religions marked by the absence of one god and the prevalence of a universal spirit, molded and influenced Eastern cultures for thousands of years. In effect, wherein Judaism, Christianity, and Islam destroyed past societies and formed strong new foundations based upon the pretense of an unquestionable and omnipotent God, Eastern cultures escaped that path by creating a sequence of cultures whose essence de l’etre were never constant and whose doctrinal beliefs based upon the universality of the one and the all never pervaded or penetrated the real structure of a people for periods of more than one century. Nature in the East was saved from the long moral struggle of the West, a struggle which monotheistic religions and cultures are fighting to this day and which seems to have no end in sight.

    To understand why this is so, one has to realize that man will fight against anything that is against his nature. A monotheistic God defied man's nature, while a universal spirit flowed in unison with it. The true source of the struggle between monotheistic religions, from crusades to jihads, lies at the very meaning of God himself. The true source is found in the internal conflict of every believer and fanatic; innocents who were born with animal elements but whose society tells them that their nature is a sin, and hence, an act against God Himself. Their fight is internal, their hate is internal, but that conflict, though started in the mind, reverberates in the soul, and in the right circumstances of instability and in the absence of order, is transformed into violent action. That action is a rebellion against the limits of society and a cry of subjugation to the power of the monotheistic God. It is not a coincidence that poverty and instability breed intolerance, hatred, fervency, and violence. It is not a coincidence that while Europe was buried in the dirt and in constant feudal war in 1096, the proclamation of a religious Crusade had such extensive popularity and success with the general populace. It is also not a coincidence that the adherents of Islam in Jerusalem, Antioch, and Tyre, spoilt with the riches of the land and having lived in a successful and prosperous culture, did not unite and defend themselves against the Crusader threat at first. It is not a coincidence that the present Middle East, which has been suffering from civil strife, bloodshed, and poverty for the past one hundred years, has demonized the West and has waged jihad after jihad on Western land. Or that the present West, spoiled with unimaginable luxuries and wealth, has 'forgotten God' and has still not fully reacted to the Islamic threat. All is due to a God who suppresses instinct and enslaves the minds of His followers. The God of Abraham is paradoxical to human nature. He is an enemy of what is intrinsic and instinctive. The extremes of man's world are but demonstrations of the struggle between nature and society. The patterns are always cyclical, always round. History provides the strongest evidence of the perfect circle of balance in the universe. History is but a diagram of this circumference, and although the rate of its velocity might change from time to time, it is proportionately equal to the measurements of the circle.

    How can a man reach such a point of religious fervency so as to give his very life for Him? How can he give it all away to a god that he has never seen and that has never been proved to exist? The Ten Commandments, the Torah, the New Testament, and the Qur’an, books supposedly written by the very hand of God, have placed impenetrable barriers on what we judge as right and wrong. An intricate circuit of moral rules to live by was placated onto Western society, and the greatest disillusionment of nature, death, was devised to safeguard its execution. Two distinctive paths were drawn out to preserve that morality: the path of salvation and the path of damnation. From then on, who people were and what they did in life had a definite result on their trajectory in the after-life. It was but an intricate illusion; an invention created by either brilliant sages or insane prophets that took root for its earth-shattering power and changed society indefinitely. Humans had become slaves to their own selves. They condemned their very nature and sought out to redeem themselves in the after-life. And although animal instincts were suppressed for the betterment of society, what was devised, instead, was a monster; a vicious cycle that was to haunt humanity with war and bloodshed and that was to instill hatred and resentment in the soul of man.

    That hate was very present in the heart of the Crusader soldier who prayed for victory over the worshippers of Satan to Jesus of Nazareth, a man who lived his life dedicated to the message of non-aggression and peace. And in the artisan from Baghdad, who raped a lowly peasant only to go back home and pray to Allah several minutes later. And it still persists in the heart of a Muslim mujahedeen, who pretends that Islam is a religion of peace but uses it for the exact opposite. And in the Christian, who preaches to "turn the other cheek" and to "love our neighbors as we love ourselves", but raises her children with bigotry and intolerance towards everyone who does not share the color of the moon. Man, filled with hate and with guilt for his nature, a guilt and a hate that was instated by society's morals, but enacted by the instinct of the animal, surrenders his will to the all-powerful God when he finds himself helpless to cleanse himself from sin and to rid himself of the torments of his mind. That act of submission represents more hate than love. It is hate disguised as love and enslavement. Man is defenseless in ignorance. That is why a man can take his own life and give it to God as his present. It is not a question of the lunacy of man. It is not a question of whether man is unnatural and different to anything else in nature. It is a question of what society forces man to do against his natural will. Every man is enslaved by society, and thus every man is limited to society. No... The virus is not man. It is society.

    It's not finished and the project will include a vast array of specifity in the future. Hope you enjoyed this.

    Sib
    Last edited by Siblesz; October 08, 2006 at 11:19 AM.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    I enjoy reading these kinds of theories and essays. You're off to a great start, and I would love to hear more than this general outline in the future. Where are you going with this, I wonder?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    Wow. Thats deep and excellent stuff. Looks past all the superficial things we see in our faiths and strikes at the very human root of it all.

  4. #4
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan
    I enjoy reading these kinds of theories and essays. You're off to a great start, and I would love to hear more than this general outline in the future. Where are you going with this, I wonder?
    I am thinking of destroying every basis of society that we have idealized for ourselves. In essence, everything will become nothing. My journey is to demonstrate that process by giving you the secrets of every great sage and philosopher: construction through deconstruction. My purpose is to defy and uncover the falsity of the illusion we call civilization and society.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    I was reading this text, which is Siblissful as usual and I wondered: Where exactly are women in all this?

  6. #6
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar
    I was reading this text, which is Siblissful as usual and I wondered: Where exactly are women in all this?


    You have to excuse me... I was raised in a macho society.

    But really. Man, in the writings, is used losely to encompass both men and women. I don't like the sound of the word human, so I refused to write human three hundred times. Besides, the word man is practical in semantics.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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    Pnutmaster's Avatar Dominus Qualitatium
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    True to the core, and superbly written.

    It should be said, Society enslaves the mind, but Society is tried and true. The Palelothic age has come and gone, and ignorance is all we have to maintain an ostensible peace. Man has taken the Apple from the Tree, and there is no turning back. Humanity will not function without its limits and its complacent masses.
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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    I'll post here what I posted at ana:

    I disagree. Human nature is violent, brutish and crude, ultimately, our nature is to survive, very basic. If it was not for society, we'd still be living in caves stinking from not bathing. Humans have overcome that, and for the better I think. Of course, I'm not saying that we should ignore our nature entirely (or else we become little more than robots) but we shouldn't let basic human nature control us completely either.
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    As I mentioned elsewhere, I am only half-way through this grand opus, but I will say one thing: would it be better to be alone? Because the decision to come together en masse and create society is no more than a choice to not be alone. There's always hermithood!
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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil
    As I mentioned elsewhere, I am only half-way through this grand opus, but I will say one thing: would it be better to be alone? Because the decision to come together en masse and create society is no more than a choice to not be alone. There's always hermithood!

    good point. Is not society a byproduct of human nature?
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    Man's readiness to die for an idea, even when the act of dying for it is intellectually incompatible with the content of the idea itself, is a symptom of his fear of his own unimportance in relation to the universe. The correct response is simply not to worry about such things, as animals do not, but if he cannot find this peace in himself then he yearns for some kind of logic that he can impose. In denial, he deludes himself, and is ready is to make sacrifices to try to prove it to himself and quell his doubts. In his heart he knows he is in denial. The ultimate expression of that denial is to die for the idea - it is the final extension of his frightened urge to crush his cosmic fears instead of facing them head on and seeing through them.

    The precise teachings behind whatever Big Idea he accepts come from Society, but on this plane Society is merely a diverse, broader expression of the personal confusion and fear from which they stem. Society is a bunch of edgy, troubled people with no direction, all thrown together randomly without even being told what they're meant to be doing there.

    The readiness to die or murder for ideas, for a Society, is an innate quality that derives from his nature as a conscious living being. The lunatic is man, not society.
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    Nihil's Avatar Annihilationist
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    I've read the rest of Sib's post, so I'll further distill my reflections on it.

    The process of the civilisation of man, and the constraining of his nature, is a necessity of society. Since every man is selfish, it is obvious that something has to give if human groups are to succeed. There is no doubt that every human who participates in society profits from doing so in almost every possible way, with the one exception that he cannot always freely do as he pleases; he must consent to obey the rules of society if he wants to join it.

    Religion was a great way of propagating laws and social mores. I already made this point in this thread, so I'm repeating myself here; but it's so much easier when dealing with children and average people to tell them to do something because God (or Santa Claus - mustn't forget him :wink: ) says so, than to ask people to use their intelligence and good judgement to resolve problems and disputes themselves in a creative and rational way.

    Human nature is too slothful not to rely on these rules of thumb. I myself use rules of thumb for everything, instead of thinking things through afresh each time. We adopt broad policies for doing things that work best in the majority of cases. They are not appropriate 100% of the time, but they save brainwork. Then we can go into autopilot when performing daily tasks, knowing that they are being carried out with reasopnable efficiency, and we can use this available thought-time to apply our brains to some other problem.

    What I'm saying in a round-about way, is that we have customs and mores for very good reasons. Most of them, no matter how superstitious and quaint they seem now, have served some legitimate purpose at some time. The problem now is that we are too smart and to well educated, and we live in a global society where the provincial, short-sighted ideals and customs that were fine in the past are now glaringly faulty. Where once entire peoples believed that morality was God-given, the exposure of contrasting moral systems with one another have thrown the eccentricities and foibles of each of them into sharp relief, and now it's becoming clear to humanity that these improvised patchwork solutions are no longer adequate. If we are to continue having moralities that make any pretense to being rational, we're going to have to make up new ones that are more applicable to our global society.

    With the questioning of specific individual systems of morality that the breakdown of Religion's monopoly on the soul has made possible, it is only one step further to question the validity and usefulness of any kind of morality and of civilisation itself.

    Which is fair enough, but it should be remembered why it is that we choose to form society in the first place, and that if we want to live with others, then certain compromises are inevitable.
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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil
    Which is fair enough, but it should be remembered why it is that we choose to form society in the first place, and that if we want to live with others, then certain compromises are inevitable.
    Life's a ***** aint' it?
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    It is good to deconstruct society and reveal the guts of what we are, however philosophers have been doing this since the stone age, so we are in part a product of deconstruction. We should also be careful not to disembowel it too, if we change to much to quickly it can and usually will be destructive.

    Looking at the thread title, are you inferring that humanity is slowly going through a process of reinventing itself? An interesting notion, although it implies beginning and end effect which there is not, having said that the overall end resolution will be inherent in the continuing societal change.

    I have often wondered if humanity will reach some kind of climax, every product and invention has its perfected form, so many things will reach their optimum – perhaps even the product of human society!

    ------------------------------------------

    edit:...

    That crisis penetrates in the deep chords of the human soul and makes the society of a man crumble, for society is nothing but an illusory blanket to continue the illusion of immortality

    there are many points to this statement...

    society does act as if we are immortal, people have mortgages etc and continually build to greater things yet in the end they are only building to nothing. Even if we are spiritually immortal this still applies. on the other hand; I suppose it is like evolution, humanity is immortal via its descendants and their inheritance, what we build now can be used for generations to come continually making things better for them. So overall there is a kind of societal immortality, just not an individual one, although if rebirth is true then it is us that inherit the wealth of history. This is not a closed case as yet, because the mind is not the result of em going on in the snot of our brains, but the brain is the meatware of the operator's mind, like society and the individual they are both inter-reliant!

    Its all circles. This is due to what i call the 'universal paradox' where there are no absolutes and everything is in everything [one thing is in or related to another]. When we look at this on its most vast scale it is [to me anyway] impossible to disentangle our minds with the whole, so their must be some kind of entity that is the base of mind or is indeed universal mind nature.

    I think this is going to take a while to get through if every sentence does this
    --------------------------------

    Nice post sibs, i haven't read it in full yet, and i doubt many have nor will do so, which is a shame about forums, everything has to be in short or it is largely ignored. I will endeavour to read it though.
    Last edited by Amorphos; October 07, 2006 at 06:01 PM.
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    Default Re: The Holy Grail of Human Society

    The nature of the beast is social. We cannot escape this fact, no matter how much we may try. The quintessential element of social organization has always been the family, and this we may escape, if genetics continues to progress to the point where total independence and individualization are actually possible. But to achieve this, we must give up some of the essence of our nature as it is currently understood, and turn to the manufacture of humans, rather than the birthing and rearing of them. Then too, to manufacture a man or a woman will long be insufficient without some form of conditioning, else we are left with animals of a superior material nature that lack for reason and catharsis.

    I'd agree with Siblesz in general terms, though I would quibble over some specifics. I think it wrong to presume that animals consider themselves immortal or invincible until the moment of their deaths. We have no evidence that even a protozoan entity does not know it will die. We have no evidence that microbes do not dream. We cannot therefore speak to the negative on these matters, even as we also cannot speak definitively to the positive. Moreover, the fact that animals will generally seek to avoid injury or death might suggest that they are aware of these possibilities, even as the same might be said to suggest that instinct alone motivates these creatures. When we say that other lifeforms outside the human species are motivated solely by instinct, we are near to Skinner's notion that the same is true of human beings.

    Here's the thing. Humanity's nature leads to the development of social orders, classes, designs and institutions. When we speak of government or religion, we speak of natural outgrowths of the innate. It is native to the species to desire comforts and securities, and these can best be assured (if our ancestors can be said to have possessed wisdom) through the development of human systems. Systems are reliable insofar as we may say that nature is unreliable. There is thus an inverse proportion to be considered, that suggests that the degree of instability in an environment will be inversely proportional to the degree of social organization. Thus, the more stable the environment, the less organized the society. Consider desert dwellers and Inuit tribes that have not progressed much beyond the level of familial social organization.

    There is an idyllic quality to nomadism or tribalism in the minds of many. I find that I agree with the view that "higher" or more "advanced" forms of society are also more likely to diverge from the balance that must needs be present in a human being in the natural state. In this regard I would side with Rousseau in saying that the so-called Savage is noble. If nobility comes of spirit and the strength of the will to live, then the savages have it over on civilized man at a rate of four-to-one. When a man sees himself and himself alone as the sole provisioner of his personal needs, he is free. He may not be free of want or care, but he is free to negotiate with his environment in the ways he sees as best. When we turn to the human need for companionship, no single individual can fulfill this requirement and remain sane. A man alone is always somewhat wack, basically, because even if his exile is self-imposed and desired, it will still cut him off from the possibility of having been heard, seen, felt and understood by other people. Under these conditions, the mind does not generally do well.

    Everything in social order must turn upon individuality, lest the social order become monotonous and unbearable. I believe that this is the process that leads to the collapse of social systems, be they those of the river valley cultures that began to spring up somewhere around 7000 years ago, the Roman Empire, or modern America. Once a system has fulfilled its purpose of generating maximum stability, it mimics an environment which is in stasis. Environments in stasis are inevitably, largely lifeless. Consider here both Arabia and the Moon as examples. Individuality is the essential ingredient that societies end up missing, because individuality is not predictable, and predictability is what systemic thinking is all about. We must---if we are the leadership class of a given society---know who and what and where and when and under what circumstances if we are to continue to provide for the needs of the masses. And we must---if again, we are the leaders---be able to take our lion's share, being the lions. This too, requires stability and predictability, as well as deceptions which support our undeserved "rights" to the spoils of leadership.

    I believe it was this that Socrates most wished to stress---all societies are founded upon "Noble Lies", which are noble only because the lies themselves claim this nobility. Human beings do not willingly surrender liberty in the quest for stability. They surrender liberty only after much manipulation and cajoling, and only when there is sufficient fear of circumstances to make the machinations of those seeking to empower themselves over others seem reasonable and palatable. The ideal state does not exist, not because perfection is unattainable, but rather because the very term, "State" is mutually exclusive with the term, "Ideal". Were men like gods or angels, there would be no need of government. And since we do not teach and condition ourselves to be better people, we continue to need systems which must over time inevitably turn to stone.
    Of the House of Wilpuri, with pride. Under the patronage of the most noble Garbarsardar, who is the bomb-digety.

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