So we're inactive....

[Poach]

This version has died due to there being absolutely no conflict to be had. The Lords Paramount failed in the simple task of dividing up equally.

Here's my idea moving forward:

1. Setting is immediate post-Andal invasion, before the Kingdoms and stuff cemented in. The North is still First Men.

2. There are no starting Kingdoms off the bat. Players are, for all intents and purposes, independent Lords. The Kingdoms remain to be carved out, for those brave enough to go for it...

3. The idea, thus:

- Players start out as any High Lord they select, as per normal character creation.
- They start with two immediate High Lord neighbours as sworn vassals. Thus, if I'm Goldentooth I could go for having Sarsfield and Ashmark, for example. That becomes my little fief, and my Lord is ranked Lord's Bannerman.
- At 5 High Lords sworn to you, you become a Lord Paramount.
- At 8, you can proclaim yourself a King.

- High Lords are vassalised by...
--- Conquering their keep. -3 Stability hit for doing it this way.
--- Marrying your heir to a family member. -1 Stability hit for doing it this way. (with the +1 for marrying your heir it cancels)
--- If you save them (eg if Riverrun tries to conquer Payne Hall and I march down and break the siege) do a d20, 1-10 they swear to you, +modified by your Lord's "loyalty" trait. +1 Stability for doing it this way.
--- Players can swear to whomever they wish. They retain their own vassals and both they and their vassals count towards the top dog's number. Eg if I as Goldentooth swore to Casterly Rock, I keep Ashmark and Sarsfield as my own immediate vassals and Casterly Rock ends up having 5 HLs total (their 2, me, my 2).

- Players get 2 AI High Lords off the bat to try to stop the first 5 years being a slow-paced RTS. The gaps should fill up quickly, because with the usual 8-12 active players playing a house or two each, that's maybe 40-50 HLs already controlled.

- Mods will form AI Lords Paramount and Kingdoms if needs be so it remains challenging, rather than a snowball effect.

4. The aim is to generate a scenario that gives players plenty to fight and scheme over, and by mid-late game we'll have a series of player Kingdoms, probably comprising of players sworn to other players by then, vying for control. From there we can do anything from foreign invasions, crusades into the North against the First Men, someone attempting to create the Iron Throne, and that then jumps us straight into a new scenario without needing to restart.

This basically gives us three scenarios in one, plenty of fighting, and gives players the opportunity to make their own destiny rather than having their lands decided pre-game. Maybe House Greyjoy will end up ruling half the Westerlands. Maybe House Hightower will become masters of the Reach. Maybe House Baratheon ends up running the Stormlands, Crownlands, part of the Reach, and becomes one of the largest Kingdoms. All is possible.

Thoughts?

[Xion]

It could be an interesting change of pace instead of using a historical setting with the established kingdoms. But if it's pre-Andal invasion, first men would be everywhere, not limited to the North and I believe the mountain clansmen would be in full control of the Vale. Not to mention there wouldn't be certain houses like Baratheon for example.

[Poach]

I meant post-Andal, how silly of me. Corrected to "immediate post-Andal".

[Oznerol]

This would be different, completely, and such, interesting. I think it's a fairly good idea... However that would require to change a good amount of things in our current rules set, as the whole Crownlands, levies, income, etc, etc... As many of them suit the Five Kings War setting but not a single bit of it would fit an Andal invasion one, it would require lot of work, maybe not worth of one game. But, I don't know...

[Wheatley]

I would go with this, sounds fun!

But we'd need a blank map to color.

[Poach]

I would propose changing all 3-5,000 levy provinces to 3,000. Places like Casterly Rock are granted huge levies because in our ruleset they're meant to be the most powerful Lords, so get those levies. So, we'd do that. King's Landing would have to turn into some countryside Lordship with reduced income and levy to match. Finally we'd need some map or record system.

None of these changes are difficult, nor do we really need to change the stickied rule threads. Keep them as they are for future, historical game settings. We can document our minor changes in a temporary thread.

[Dirty Chai]

Not to mention tons of places have either yet to be founded/built up by Andal conquerors or have been conquered.
Certainly makes one imagine Westeros as more of a clean slate; Viking Age as opposed to late Middle Ages in power and wealth.

Which makes me imagine/wonder about the possibility of changing some military things..

-----------------------------------

I've always imagined Andal invaders as being, well, Germanic invaders; Specifically Vandals.
Vandals actually had a tribal deity that had something to do with the Evening Star, Aurvandil I think; A similar concept having to do with "seven parts of the star" would make a great origin for the Faith of the Seven.

Anyways, I suppose we should all get on the same page about the aesthetic side of things, for RP purposes.
I'm thinking chain, scale, leather, and pelts for armor and clothing, Vendel-style weaponry..
Andals have brought iron working to Westeros, the First Men have likely adopted it by now.

Do the Andals have stone castles yet?
Or would they all be wooden motte-and-bailey forts?

What about knighthood?
In the real world, knighthood essentially rose out of service as a mounted warrior.
We could say that the Andal tradition of fighting on horseback began right before the invasion into Westeros, coinciding with a population boom in Andalos leading to overpopulation (hence large numbers of migratory warriors later).
Warriors on horseback were usually the leading men (nobles, retainers, elite warriors) of kings and chieftains, and similar to Carolingian times, their service was rewarded with land grants in conquered lands (cementing feudalism and replacing the First Men nobility!).
The concept of a social rank of knighthood might be a new thing, or have yet to evolve yet.
Chivalry I think would be a young or new idea at best.

[Victorius]

hm well we are inactive indeed! and i like your ideas...lets go for it, keep this game alive

[Axis Sunsoar]

I would be in!

[Lucius Malfoy]

I am game as well. It will be interesting, as Xion said, since a lot of houses we know won't even be around. And it will give us the chance to make sort of legendary beginnings for our own created houses.

[Clagius]

I'm in. This sounds actually very interesting. And I agree with BF about the Age. I don't think there was knights either yet.

[Dirty Chai]

According to the Wiki, Andals brought knighthood to Westeros.
I just suggest we model it off of late Carolingian knighthood.

[Honors Bastion]

This new setting sounds interesting enough to RP in. Without any set history, it leaves players completely open to creating some unique Houses and religious combinations. Also, we might actually see more religious warfare with this setting due to the fact that the Andals were the ones who brought the Faith of the Seven to Westeros and if we start immediately post-invasion, most of the population would still probably be Old God Worshippers. It could create some really interesting conflicts.

About the rules, we can easily create a new thread for the Rules for this new version and move the current one into the mod forum. I will probably end up making a new rules thread anyways, as Ponti's proposed rule changes, even though they didn't get implemented, showed how unorganized our current rules thread really was.

@ Sotha. That sounds reasonable enough for us to base Knighthood upon the Carolingian style. About the castles, I would bet that there are some stone castles in existence as places like Oldtown, Casterly Rock, Storm's End, and probably Winterfell existed as mighty keeps even before the Andals arrived. Now, to what degree the prevalence of the stone castles will be debatable as Westerosi history more or less lacks any sort of technological advancement in it as far as I can tell and so it becomes difficult for where we draw the line. I will try to get some research on this subject tomorrow.

[Axis Sunsoar]

War system might be based more on razing or sacking cities than conquering them, and only capturing major tactical points.

[Xion]

War system might be based more on razing or sacking cities than conquering them, and only capturing major tactical points.

That presents the problem of defining these tactical points per region along with the benefits they present, while the raze/sack focus could make it so players who are conquered will likely drop the conquered house and start over as players typically don't like to lose/if their province(s) are heavily damaged, that weakens the conqueror(less men to levy I would imagine) and the conquered player(limits their options to revolt, per se). So in theory, that may not be the best idea from a rp perspective, in my opinion.

Not that I am saying people shouldn't have those options.

[Axis Sunsoar]

That presents the problem of defining these tactical points per region along with the benefits they present, while the raze/sack focus could make it so players who are conquered will likely drop the conquered house and start over as players typically don't like to lose/if their province(s) are heavily damaged, that weakens the conqueror(less men to levy I would imagine) and the conquered player(limits their options to revolt, per se). So in theory, that may not be the best idea from a rp perspective, in my opinion.

Not that I am saying people shouldn't have those options.

I was just thinking from a historical standpoint. Brainstorming time-period specific ideas can come first, and then we can consider their practicality for the game.

[Trot]

I'd be interested in this

[Trot]

Also all high lords should start at an even power and All realms should be divided between old gods and Seven followers. Riverlands should still have a strong old gods following while places like the Reach and the Vale should have weaker Followings just barely manege to cling on. This would allow players to try and restore the old gods religion in other regions an possibly simulate the Religious turmoil of the Era with Lords banning together for there own protection and to preserve there faith. It also means we could end up with more old god kigdoms. And places like Olldstones would be a mighty keep of house mudd. Harrenhal and the twins probably wouldn't exist yet lore wise. How will you deal with things like that?

[Dirty Chai]

Not if it's more than a century after the invasions.
You'd have a lot more Faith of the Seven worship.

I'm partial to starting a century or so after the Andal conquerors found their little petty kingdoms.

[Jokern]

I'm in, sounds interesting. Concerning stone castles, I'd say that the lords and kings of Westeros had them as mighty castles like Winterfell, Storm's End and Casterly Rock were built then.