On the Papal States & Crusades

**Kammamuri** · February 09, 2014, 01:31 PM

Hello!

I've been playing with the HRE (with bgrV)... the first time everything was going fine until turn 13 when a Crusade was called on Frankfurt, I really doubt I could have survived it so gave up and started again. This time my plan was to kill the pope before the 13th turn, even if that would cause me to take Venice a little later. Problem is, the Pope has almost 3 full stacks of professional troops (papal guard and feudal knights mainly, with some 3 or 4 family members).. all of this with 1 single region lol.. I doubt I can defeat so many heavy knights and spearmen so I thought to assassinate him. Highest probability to succeed 10%! so I reloaded a bit

.. his successor was French and since i was still excommunicated I kill him too (this time i had about 60% chance - which brought me to think, why does the first pope have so much personal security?) finally my Antipope become Pope, I got back 1 cross of papal favour (isn't he supposed to support my cause?!).

My main question is: is it possible to make it so that no crusade can be called on an excommunicated faction? - this way there wouldn't really be a reason to go kill the pope... I'm not an expert in history, but I don't think any crusade as ever been called on a christian faction (let alone a catholic one), also because it's the faction leader that gets excommunicated not the entire population of the HRE. Alternatively, how do I reduce the amount of troops the pope can have? (that many with 1 single region is just insane and too imbalanced! I probably have the same amount of troops in all the empire ... furthermore, historically it makes no sense at all for the pope to conquer Pisa or, worse, Marsiglia).

**Nzg** · February 09, 2014, 03:13 PM

Well... You could call a crusade on a distant target(Damietta for example) before you get excommunicated, or just keep the pope happy.

**Kammamuri** · February 09, 2014, 03:37 PM

you start excommunicated ...

**magitsu** · February 09, 2014, 06:45 PM

Pisa = one of the main Ghibelline cities. There's one reason why it could make sense. Or what did you mean?
Marsiglia makes very little sense though.

For example twice in the 13th century crowing King of Sicily was considered usurpation of a papal fief, which resulted in excommunication.
Crusades were defensive wars in the larger picture, to curb the power of Islam. To rescue the Eastern Christians, liberate Jerusalem and few other holy cities closest related to life of Christ. So there were no crusades on Christians by design. Still the Fourth crusade ended up by accident wrecking relations between the Greek orthodox and Roman catholic, the opposite of what crusades were originally meant to.
Excommunicated leader -> crusade on the faction is indeed ridiculous.

The easiest solution might be killing your own excommunicated faction leader.

**Kammamuri** · February 09, 2014, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by magitsu

The easiest solution might be killing your own excommunicated faction leader.

this may really be a solution! thanks

i should have thought of that myself ... I guess I don't really like having to through away a character, especially since I'd take me at least another 144 turns to have a non-adopted heir, but if it means I can avoid being crusaded I'd definitely go for it! I'll try it as soon as i have some spare time.. Still it would be nice to be able to disable crusades against catholic factions.

As far as Pisa being a Ghibelline city, that would mean the Pope had influence on it but not marching on the city and conquering it... I'll see if it's possible to take the city before he does.

**magitsu** · February 09, 2014, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kammamuri

Hello!

I've been playing with the HRE (with bgrV)... the first time everything was going fine until turn 13 when a Crusade was called on Frankfurt, I really doubt I could have survived it so gave up and started again. This time my plan was to kill the pope before the 13th turn, even if that would cause me to take Venice a little later. Problem is, the Pope has almost 3 full stacks of professional troops (papal guard and feudal knights mainly, with some 3 or 4 family members).. all of this with 1 single region lol.. I doubt I can defeat so many heavy knights and spearmen so I thought to assassinate him. Highest probability to succeed 10%! so I reloaded a bit

.. his successor was French and since i was still excommunicated I kill him too (this time i had about 60% chance - which brought me to think, why does the first pope have so much personal security?) finally my Antipope become Pope, I got back 1 cross of papal favour (isn't he supposed to support my cause?!).

My main question is: is it possible to make it so that no crusade can be called on an excommunicated faction? - this way there wouldn't really be a reason to go kill the pope... I'm not an expert in history, but I don't think any crusade as ever been called on a christian faction (let alone a catholic one), also because it's the faction leader that gets excommunicated not the entire population of the HRE. Alternatively, how do I reduce the amount of troops the pope can have? (that many with 1 single region is just insane and too imbalanced! I probably have the same amount of troops in all the empire ... furthermore, historically it makes no sense at all for the pope to conquer Pisa or, worse, Marsiglia).

Well, it's bgrV... which favors more "tough enough" challenge rather than plausibility / realism.
Why does it not make sense for pope to rule over larger part of peninsula? Papal States went on to become one of the leading candidates for forming Italy.

**Byg** · February 11, 2014, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by magitsu

Well, it's bgrV... which favors more "tough enough" challenge rather than plausibility / realism.
Why does it not make sense for pope to rule over larger part of peninsula? Papal States went on to become one of the leading candidates for forming Italy.

BGRV favours both challenge, plausibility and realism. You are assuming this crusade query is bgr related when it is not. It is standard game behaviour.

**Kammamuri** · February 11, 2014, 04:35 AM

Update: I got the Emperor killed while assaulting Venice and it worked perfectly, now I'm not excommunicated any more and I have even managed to sign a couple alliances!
I was wondering, since now my new Emperor's brother is Heir (the Emperor has no biological son, yet .. but has adopted 1 guy) will the current Heir give up it's position if I get a biological son of my Emperor to the age of 14?

**Duck of Death** · February 14, 2014, 06:25 PM

"Update: I got the Emperor killed while assaulting Venice and it worked perfectly, now I'm not excommunicated any more and I have even managed to sign a couple alliances!
I was wondering, since now my new Emperor's brother is Heir (the Emperor has no biological son, yet .. but has adopted 1 guy) will the current Heir give up it's position if I get a biological son of my Emperor to the age of 14?"

Afriad not.
Once the guy is the heir, it cant be switched to someone else unless he either dies or becomes King when your leader dies.

Kind of a pain. I try to get my faction heir's son to 14 (so the king's grandson) before my King dies if I want the direct family line continued. If that fails, Ill sometimes wait until that grandson does turn 14 and then "accidently" kill the heir that I didnt want.

**Kammamuri** · February 14, 2014, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Duck of Death

"Update: I got the Emperor killed while assaulting Venice and it worked perfectly, now I'm not excommunicated any more and I have even managed to sign a couple alliances!
I was wondering, since now my new Emperor's brother is Heir (the Emperor has no biological son, yet .. but has adopted 1 guy) will the current Heir give up it's position if I get a biological son of my Emperor to the age of 14?"

Afriad not.
Once the guy is the heir, it cant be switched to someone else unless he either dies or becomes King when your leader dies.

Kind of a pain. I try to get my faction heir's son to 14 (so the king's grandson) before my King dies if I want the direct family line continued. If that fails, Ill sometimes wait until that grandson does turn 14 and then "accidently" kill the heir that I didnt want.

Thanks for the info, that's what I was suspecting but wasn't sure

@Nzg Keeping the FL alive sounds really good, but I don't know if I would have found the florins to get the reconcilement, especially because I have to keep lots of troops in the castles near France/Denmark/Poland and in Vienna otherwise everyone is going to try to attack me! Btw now I'm about turn 30-35 in the game, haven't lost any territory, got Ancona, Pisa, Venice and Milan and I'm preparing to take down the Republic of Genoa.. meanwhile I won the crusade (conquered Gaza with the new FL) and basically sold all Egypt to various European factions for alliances.

**Nzg** · February 11, 2014, 10:00 AM

Was my post from last night deleted or not added? It happened a few times before and the posts weren't vulgar etc. If it was deleted by a mod could I get the information what was wrong with it?

**Navajo Joe** · February 11, 2014, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Nzg

Was my post from last night deleted or not added? It happened a few times before and the posts weren't vulgar etc. If it was deleted by a mod could I get the information what was wrong with it?

NZG, I have not deleted any post from you, was active on forum last night till 2230 and back from 0800 today, what did you post, send via vm

**mrgreenlonely** · February 13, 2014, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by Kammamuri

Hello!

I've been playing with the HRE (with bgrV)... the first time everything was going fine until turn 13 when a Crusade was called on Frankfurt, I really doubt I could have survived it so gave up and started again. This time my plan was to kill the pope before the 13th turn, even if that would cause me to take Venice a little later. Problem is, the Pope has almost 3 full stacks of professional troops (papal guard and feudal knights mainly, with some 3 or 4 family members).. all of this with 1 single region lol.. I doubt I can defeat so many heavy knights and spearmen so I thought to assassinate him. Highest probability to succeed 10%! so I reloaded a bit

.. his successor was French and since i was still excommunicated I kill him too (this time i had about 60% chance - which brought me to think, why does the first pope have so much personal security?) finally my Antipope become Pope, I got back 1 cross of papal favour (isn't he supposed to support my cause?!).

My main question is: is it possible to make it so that no crusade can be called on an excommunicated faction? - this way there wouldn't really be a reason to go kill the pope... I'm not an expert in history, but I don't think any crusade as ever been called on a christian faction (let alone a catholic one), also because it's the faction leader that gets excommunicated not the entire population of the HRE. Alternatively, how do I reduce the amount of troops the pope can have? (that many with 1 single region is just insane and too imbalanced! I probably have the same amount of troops in all the empire ... furthermore, historically it makes no sense at all for the pope to conquer Pisa or, worse, Marsiglia).

why didnt u get an alliance with Pope at the beginning when u started a campaign ?? i did that i played Lithuania. I was free to destroyed many catholic factions and never got a Crusade

now im going to break alliance with him, let him call a crusade on my land

im really strong to beat all of them now .

**Kammamuri** · February 13, 2014, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by mrgreenlonely

why didnt u get an alliance with Pope at the beginning when u started a campaign ?? i did that i played Lithuania. I was free to destroyed many catholic factions and never got a Crusade

now im going to break alliance with him, let him call a crusade on my land

im really strong to beat all of them now .

I think I mentioned this above, you start off at war with the pope and excommunicated

**Websy** · February 13, 2014, 01:58 PM

Is there any way to implement a Byzantine call for crusade?
Always struck me as weird they can't appealt given Alexius I is how it all started.

**Nzg** · February 14, 2014, 06:49 PM

Kammamuri, I did a little test and getting reconciled in less than 10 turns without killing the Emperor is quite doable. Try to get a diplomat to Rome asap, after he get's there give the pope some gifts. 300 florins here, 400 florins there, and soon he's requests will be "peace". Give him peace(I managed to get ceasefire +3000 florins + map) and gather money for reconcilement. 7000 florins + map did the work for me(I played chivalrously, no executions, allways occupy etc.), and soon I had an alliance with Papal states.

**Nzg** · February 15, 2014, 01:29 PM

GJ!

Early and Late era vary much for the HRE. In early I managed to win in about 70 turns and it was the easyest campaign of all. Late one looks much more tougher, the excommunication doesn't help and enemy is quickly attacking. I had France attacking me at turn 4 and others roaming around my settlements at all times. Surely I'll try it out when I have the time

**Roma_Victrix** · February 15, 2014, 07:17 PM

Not only were Holy Roman Emperors excommunicated throughout history, but in 1284 the papacy had a proper crusade called against the Crown of Aragon (that ended the next year) called the Arogonese Crusade, led by France and Navarre. It was over the possession of Sicily among other things. Aragon didn't have their excommunication lifted until 1291.

If you ever decide to start a new campaign, consider allying yourself with the papacy via diplomacy and a little money to grease the deal (like 7 or 8,000 florin if you have the money handy). That way the pope will just give you warnings that he will disfavor you (by a measly one cross point) if you do something he dislikes, not excommunicate you.

An alliance with the papacy has its many advantages as a Catholic faction.

**Kammamuri** · February 16, 2014, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix

Not only were Holy Roman Emperors excommunicated throughout history, but in 1284 the papacy had a proper crusade called against the Crown of Aragon (that ended the next year) called the Arogonese Crusade, led by France and Navarre. It was over the possession of Sicily among other things. Aragon didn't have their excommunication lifted until 1291.

Thanks for the info

I had never heard of the Aragonese Crusade before... well, at least now it makes more sense that the Pope can call crusades on excommunicated factions.

As far as signing an alliance with the Papal States I think I'll go without it. When I play hotseat with a friend of mine we have a "no allying pope" rule, and even if now I'm playing a single player campaign I think I'll stick to that house rule.

**Nzg** · February 15, 2014, 08:56 PM

The problem is in fact, that you start at war and excommunicated with the Papal States. That means that you first need to get a ceasefire, than a reconcilment. Alliance is far, far away. For every other faction is a must, but for HRE it's a goal that is hard to achieve.