Use of Armenian skirmisher cavalry and caucasian spearmen

**ooji** · February 08, 2014, 04:50 PM

I am having hard time seeing use for those two units. Eastern skirmisher cavalry has better armor and about the same stats so why should I even bother using Armenian ones? Pantodapoi spearmen have exactly the same stats as caucasian ones and I honestly don't understand why they bothered adding them. Their description is that since they live in the mountains fighting all the time, they're tougher than Greek levy spearmen, yet there's no actual difference. If anything, Caucasian spearmen have lower morale.

One a side note, what's with the terribly awful battle music for Eastern factions? It's hard to call it music. It's annoying to hear and ruins my EB experience.

**yuezhi** · February 08, 2014, 06:19 PM

Um, no armenians are better. If you're assuming I'm an ass about this then check this fossil record:
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...tegory=cavalry
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...tegory=cavalry

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...tegory=cavalry
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...tegory=cavalry

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...egory=infantry
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...egory=infantry

Were you expecting Hans Zimmer?

**Entropy Judge** · February 08, 2014, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by ooji

I am having hard time seeing use for those two units. Eastern skirmisher cavalry has better armor and about the same stats so why should I even bother using Armenian ones?

In case you haven't checked the links yuezhi provided, I'll explain. Armenian Skirmishers have Attack 5 compared to the Easterners' 4 for their missiles, and have range 57.8 compared to the Easterners' 55. Oh, and the Easterners carry 8 Javelin each, while the Armenians carry 14. Armour doesn't really matter, because neither one has a good Charge and shouldn't be getting attacked if you can help it.

Pantodapoi spearmen have exactly the same stats as caucasian ones

Caucasian Spearmen have better Charge, more Stamina, and Hide in Forests better. They also have better Morale, albeit with different Discipline and less Training.

There is also the possibility of the units having different MIC levels for various factions, but that'd require me to check it with the Recruitment Viewer, which isn't on this computer.

**ooji** · February 08, 2014, 09:10 PM

Yeah well, Armenian skirmisher cavalry has only 1 extra ranged attack and 1 extra morale. I honestly don't think that worth having 3 less armor. Armor helps a lot vs projectiles whereas +1 attack difference really doesn't make much difference. As for the melee cavalry, Armenian ones have extra 150 upkeep for only +1 attack and defence difference. I don't think that's worth it either. Caucasian spearmen only have slight charge value difference and +1 morale, but aside from that, it doesn't appear there's much difference.
And no I don't expect 10/10 music, but least something that's bearable to hear would be nice.

**the man, the myth, the legend** · February 08, 2014, 09:51 PM

Yeah, the mods been out for a while, is not being worked on, and pretty much what you have is what you get. Any arguements on why this or that should be different or change is pretty much a waste of time, you could spend that time on learning how to mod yourself to tailor EB to suit you own needs, thats what I did.

**Kanov** · March 03, 2014, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by the man, the myth, the legend

Yeah, the mods been out for a while, is not being worked on, and pretty much what you have is what you get. Any arguements on why this or that should be different or change is pretty much a waste of time, you could spend that time on learning how to mod yourself to tailor EB to suit you own needs, thats what I did.

Please do tell what sort of changes have you done? I'm always curious about other ppl set ups.

**ooji** · February 08, 2014, 10:20 PM

Yeah I guess so :/

**Ryoga84** · February 09, 2014, 06:22 AM

Well, I don't think that's the point.
Different units with the same role and similar stats can exists
for example, all the Lusotannan roster, which is nearly doubled in the Iberian one
or the Syrian Archers, really close to the Cretan
or half of the nomad cavalry roster,
etc etc

but I really like this

**athanaric** · February 09, 2014, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by ooji

I am having hard time seeing use for those two units. Eastern skirmisher cavalry has better armor and about the same stats so why should I even bother using Armenian ones?

Because Armenian ones have 14 javelins and generic "Eastern" ones only 8. Ths makes up for the deficiences in armour and AoR. So they are about the same in terms of usefulness.

Pantodapoi spearmen have exactly the same stats as caucasian ones and I honestly don't understand why they bothered adding them. Their description is that since they live in the mountains fighting all the time, they're tougher than Greek levy spearmen, yet there's no actual difference. If anything, Caucasian spearmen have lower morale.

As you've already been told, Caucasian Spearmen are better in forests. They are generally better for asymmetrical warfare and are very important in early campaign for Hayasdan. Later on, it's better to rely on Armenian Spearmen and Panda Phalanx.

One a side note, what's with the terribly awful battle music for Eastern factions? It's hard to call it music. It's annoying to hear and ruins my EB experience.

The new motto of EB: suum cuique.

But I understand where you're coming from. I tend to turn off music during battles and turn it on for the campaign map. If your computer can handle it, you can turn off music and run a separate music programme simultaneously.

Originally Posted by yuezhi

Were you expecting Hans Zimmer?

And why would that be a good thing anyway. Not that I dislike Hans Zimmer or anything, but his soundtracks are focused on the modern world. If you want authenticity, it'd be better to go with, say, Aram Khachaturian (an Armenian composer) than with any Hollywood composer. Or with traditional music from the region.

Originally Posted by Ryoga84

Well, I don't think that's the point.
Different units with the same role and similar stats can exists
for example, all the Lusotannan roster, which is nearly doubled in the Iberian one
or the Syrian Archers, really close to the Cretan
or half of the nomad cavalry roster,
etc etc

but I really like this

And there are always subtle differences. For example, the Lusitanians use more regular javelins while the Iberians use more soliferra. The regional variants of Dugundiz have different charge, morale, shield, or density values. Syrian Archers have shorter range and less ammo and lethality than Cretans, but more armour. And so on. And all of these seemingly "duplicate" units have very pretty skins.

**Ryoga84** · February 09, 2014, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by athanaric

And there are always subtle differences. For example, the Lusitanians use more regular javelins while the Iberians use more soliferra. The regional variants of Dugundiz have different charge, morale, shield, or density values. Syrian Archers have shorter range and less ammo and lethality than Cretans, but more armour. And so on. And all of these seemingly "duplicate" units have very pretty skins.

yup, exactly waht I was trying to say ^_^

**Morshu9001** · December 28, 2014, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by athanaric

And why would that be a good thing anyway. Not that I dislike Hans Zimmer or anything, but his soundtracks are focused on the modern world. If you want authenticity, it'd be better to go with, say, Aram Khachaturian (an Armenian composer) than with any Hollywood composer. Or with traditional music from the region.

Yeah, Zimmer's music would not fit at all. The campaign map music for Hayasdan is actually completely spot-on, but I don't know about the battle music. Traditional music for Hayasdan battles is available and would be better than the generic "eastern" music they have now. I was also a little disappointed that they speak Persian during battle, but I know EB only has a few languages because they're hard to make.

I can't believe someone brought up one of my favorite composers, Aram Khachaturian, on a computer game forum! The problems are that Khachaturian's music is modern/classical in style, so it doesn't fit the ancient battles very well, and it has old Armenian roots but has a lot of influence from Europe. I think he did a great job making classical music with Armenian musical style, but it's not really fitting for EB because so much of it is based on musical style invented many centuries later.

**Ownager** · February 10, 2014, 01:47 AM

The EB eastern music is so good! It gives me half the inspiration. When the song reaches the climax, I tend to feel like all my units are failing, even though there are ample reinforcements.

**ooji** · February 10, 2014, 11:34 AM

To each his own I guess. I absolutely hate that battle music. It's sounds like a senseless horn blowing.

**athanaric** · February 10, 2014, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by ooji

To each his own I guess. I absolutely hate that battle music. It's sounds like a senseless horn blowing.

I think that's the purpose. It's meant to evoke the din of the battlefield, with all those command signals and so on.
Though certainly not something you'd play when you just want to listen to music.

**Ownager** · March 12, 2014, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by athanaric

I think that's the purpose. It's meant to evoke the din of the battlefield, with all those command signals and so on.
Though certainly not something you'd play when you just want to listen to music.

Guilty.
The confusion and chaos is perfect when you think of the Horse archer armies, and how organized, yet chaotic their way of fighting seems. I would go into detail about how it feels to me, but this isn't a music analysis thread, so that's just my idea.

**Frtigern** · February 10, 2014, 05:28 PM

Playing as Hayasdan, I find that skirmishing cavalry aren't necessary. There are plenty of horse archer varieties in its AOR, more if I recruit mercenaries up north. I can use hellenic skirmishers if I must have javelins, and some of those horse archers pack a mean punch as light cavalry, enough to flank and rout infantry. I'm not even talking about the armored horse archers, which have good stamina too. They are, IMO, a bit too expensive to justify their use. I prefer dedicated heavy cavalry.

**Team Sleep** · March 10, 2014, 08:41 PM

It's all about that unit diversity in army compositions.

In the immortal words of the GZA from Wu-Tang clan.

"You need to diversify your bonds n

a!"

**Ownager** · March 12, 2014, 08:45 AM

I always loved Javelin cavalry. I took Numidian cavalry right up to Germania with Carthage, and they lost only one unit. Reading The AAR by Decimus Milo on Numidia is a great way to understand the use of jav cav. To be honest though, I don't use them often nowadays, except Campanians, Leuce Epos, Ridonez and Tarentines.

**Morshu9001** · December 28, 2014, 09:09 PM

I created a large Hayasdansi empire in EB. I hardly used Caucasian Spearmen or Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry. I relied most heavily on Caucasian Archers, which are overpowered. They have the highest missile attack (same as Cretans) and have good range, and they're very cheap. Plus I can hold off huge armies as long as I have them on a mountain, so I used them to protect my starting towns in eastern Armenia from strong northern armies while I sent most of my men south and east to capture cities from the Seleucid Empire.

I only had a few Caucasian Spearmen, just enough to take down some Hellenic Bodyguard Cavalry units that occasionally charged at my archers. I consider them, along with Hellenic Native Spearmen, to be bad units. The Hellenic ones are significantly worse, IMO. Too easy to rout. I always trained Hellenic Native Phalanx instead whenever possible.

I almost never created heavy cavalry, but that's mostly because every cheapo unit out there carries spears, so they're not worth it. Armenian heavy cavalry are better suited fighting in western Europe, haha. The bodyguard unit was usually enough to take out the one non-spear melee unit the enemy was using.

I agree with everyone here saying that the Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry are equal to the Eastern Cavalry in general, better in some situations and worse in others. I think they're a little faster, and the extra ammo really helps. Both are too expensive. I'd rather have 5 Caucasian Archer units than 2 Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry units for the same cost. And skirmisher cavalry in general aren't too useful in battle. Horse archers cost about the same or less and can do a lot more damage without even getting close. Saka Riders cost less than most skirmisher cavalry and are much, much better. The only thing I'd use Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry for is for routing the weaker part of the enemy army quickly; most horse archers do more damage over time but not enough at once to rout enemies. Skirmisher cavalry also wreck elephants, but who uses elephants? Not even the AI uses them very often.

Same goes with foot skirmishers vs slingers or archers. I only ever make skirmishers if there's nothing else to train. They suck. If you put them on skirmish mode, they have to run away before they even get a chance to fire.