Discussion Thread: How can the Freeform campaign be improved?

[Jakeford]

Everyone who has played it knows that the campaign is in a very unpolished state. While it certainly has its merits (custom settlements, a campaign map that looks awesome and very Zelda like yet realistic) and can be quite fun it is very flawed.

Here are some ways I think it could be improved.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Every unit should be recruitable and assessable in a way that makes sense. The barracks tech tree should be well balanced with factions getting similar tier units are similar barracks. For example, the Hylians get the well armored and professional Hylian infantry at the first barracks, the Kokiri get minutemen. That isn't balanced. By the time the Labrynna Regime gets their gunners the game has almost ended anyway, it also doesn't make sense that they get gunner post before regular gunners.

Trait changing needs to come back! Right now trait earning and stat changing for generals and agents it turned off. I believe this is because their were some crashed caused in certain scenarios. But completely turning it off isn't the answer! Those crashed need to be resolved in a different way. The fact that agents can't get anymore skill then 0 makes assassins, priest, and merchants completely useless. It can also make diplomacy hard. The fact that generals never gain dread or chivalry based on their actions or command from victories is very flat and really takes away form the gameplay. They never change, they just stay the same, generic, commander they were in the beginning.

Beef up those crapy hero's! Right now most of the hero characters are just plain worthless. They have no chivalry or dread, they have little command. Some don't even have loyalty which guarantees they will betray you! This really doesn't make sense and simply defies video game logic. The hero characters, the ones that have a unique face and name, the ones who are important are worst leaders then the generic generals? I would suggest giving them lots of either chivalry or dread depending on their personality and status, and also either giving the lots of command or making them really good at managing cities again, depending or their status, role, and personality.

More balanced campaign map. The campaign map is great but it should be more balanced in terms of autography and territories. Their should be more territories in certain places and mountains in certain places should be moved. The map should be well balanced and interesting in every place to make every faction fun and give them all a good chance at becoming powerful along with their own problems. (For example, Ordona always rolfstomps the Lizalfos and Ikana, Ordona has it to good and Ikana and the Lizalfos don't stand a chance)

Better wars. Wars don't last long, factions usually don't put up a lot of resistance depending on who you are and who they are, and they don't last long enough. They usually end with you crusting them, and them refusing to get a peace treaty even though they have one territory left.

So what do you guy think? Do my points suck? Are they good? What are your own ideas on how the campaign should be improved? Remember, this is a discussion thread!

[Sir Aroun]

Hero Powers are coming in the next patch. 3 and 4 would never work and 2 was most likely taken out for a reason.

[Jakeford]

Hero Powers are coming in the next patch. 3 and 4 would never work and 2 was most likely taken out for a reason.

Said reason was stated in my article. How exactly would 3 and 4 never work? For 3 it is a simple matter starting them out with more command, city management traits, and chivalry/dread. Yes I know that hero powers are coming in the next patch but that still doesn't change the fact that my hero characters are simply mad commanders with little bonuses and it has nothing to do with managing settlements. Really don't see what you mean when you say 3 won't work. As for 4 I again don't see what you mean when you say it won't work. 4 is about revising the campaign map, adding more tertian, adding more territories and modifying boarders to give factions more to fight for and different locations to control which will lead to more strategy.

If I misunderstood your point then please elaborate but I just don't understand and have no idea why you say those 2 solutions wouldn't work. You simply made a statement and didn't explain it.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Well first, I'd like to say that from the point of view of someone who's been here since before we even had a campaign, I find the campaign in its current state very well done and successful in its original intent with regards to how factions should work and giving the player a feeling of control over the world of Hyrule as a whole. Each new version has made it better and I can only presume it will continue to be so. I will not claim it is perfect, however, and some of your points do make sense. Let me evaluate them point-by-point.

Every unit should be recruitable and assessable in a way that makes sense. The barracks tech tree should be well balanced with factions getting similar tier units are similar barracks. For example, the Hylians get the well armored and professional Hylian infantry at the first barracks, the Kokiri get minutemen. That isn't balanced. By the time the Labrynna Regime gets their gunners the game has almost ended anyway, it also doesn't make sense that they get gunner post before regular gunners.

Despite this, as Kokiri, I always kill the Hylians by turn 15, and that's after already getting rid of the Lizalfos (explanation: Wolfos ). Nevertheless, I see your point. There are instances where a faction cannot recruit some of the units on its roster. While this can be remedied with file manipulation, I think the mod itself should accommodate this.

As for the order in which units are unlocked, I think that will have to be handled on a case-by-case basis. Hylians get Town Guards free, without a barracks. However, it would make more sense for them to get Swordsman Recruits prior to Infantry. Unfortunately, the Kingdom is in a position where it may need a stronger starting military than most to deal with the wars that are supposed to start on several fronts, meaning that they may need their better infantry out at an earlier time. I crush them easy enough without giving them a tier demotion... I personally would make the Swordsman Recruits and Infantry available at the same time, but have Recruits replenish faster. Again, this will have to be evaluated case-by-case, faction-by-faction. We're gonna end up with a lot of different ideas on how to work this.

Trait changing needs to come back! Right now trait earning and stat changing for generals and agents it turned off. I believe this is because their were some crashed caused in certain scenarios. But completely turning it off isn't the answer! Those crashed need to be resolved in a different way. The fact that agents can't get anymore skill then 0 makes assassins, priest, and merchants completely useless. It can also make diplomacy hard. The fact that generals never gain dread or chivalry based on their actions or command from victories is very flat and really takes away form the gameplay. They never change, they just stay the same, generic, commander they were in the beginning.

These crashes related to Agent-traits have caused campaigns to come to a complete halt. Sorry, but until the exact traits and causes are identified, we are safer not having trait changing. What I propose instead is to either add structures that will increase the starting skill of Agents recruited from that town, give them a higher (3 skill sounds ok) base skill, or both.

Beef up those crapy hero's! Right now most of the hero characters are just plain worthless. They have no chivalry or dread, they have little command. Some don't even have loyalty which guarantees they will betray you! This really doesn't make sense and simply defies video game logic. The hero characters, the ones that have a unique face and name, the ones who are important are worst leaders then the generic generals? I would suggest giving them lots of either chivalry or dread depending on their personality and status, and also either giving the lots of command or making them really good at managing cities again, depending or their status, role, and personality.

I would agree with this notion.

More balanced campaign map. The campaign map is great but it should be more balanced in terms of autography and territories. Their should be more territories in certain places and mountains in certain places should be moved. The map should be well balanced and interesting in every place to make every faction fun and give them all a good chance at becoming powerful along with their own problems. (For example, Ordona always rolfstomps the Lizalfos and Ikana, Ordona has it to good and Ikana and the Lizalfos don't stand a chance)

I don't think the problem is in the map itself, but is an issue with the emerging factions coming in at a time past where they could reasonably do anything. If Ikana spawned on turn one with all the Ikana Canyon territories, the scenario you described may turn out different. In all honesty, I think the emerging factions should be given more of an early game presence in order to make them threatening and not have guys like Ordona just eat up the land that factions like Ikana are supposed to have. This is what has been proposed in another thread and I find myself in agreement with this idea.

Better wars. Wars don't last long, factions usually don't put up a lot of resistance depending on who you are and who they are, and they don't last long enough. They usually end with you crusting them, and them refusing to get a peace treaty even though they have one territory left.

I've had some wars take as few as 2 turns and some longer than 30. Late game, I tend to have most of the world at war with me. In my current Kokiri campaign, I have not yet hit turn 30 and I am at war with the Gohma, Lanayru, the River Zora (who actually took cities, shockingly), the Zora Dominion, the Gorons, and Subrosia while already having killed the Lizalfos, the Deku, and the Kingdom of Hyrule (I absorbed the Huskus). This is where the campaign becomes really enjoyable for me, as I have a massive empire and am taking on almost all of my neighbors at once, having to allocate resources to different areas according to threat level. Some may think that being so fast-paced is terrible; I personally love it. The one part where I will back you up though is with regards to the peace treaty agreements. The AI fails to know when they are beaten and thus will almost never accept peace. I think that should be reworked to give players more diplomatic options when playing through the game and increase the immersion via believability.

[tf_]

The AI fails to know when they are beaten and thus will almost never accept peace. I think that should be reworked to give players more diplomatic options when playing through the game and increase the immersion via believability.

I think I remember reading somewhere that the AI's perception of how well a war is going is based on settlements taken, so if there's been no change since the start they won't see any reason to stop, even if thousands of their soldiers have died already. It's a bit annoying and very unrealistic. For example, playing as the Zora I have one army on the bridge next to Kakariko (and the town itself), which is the only way they can get to me. Hyrule has sent army after army at it, and each one has lost at least 70% of its troops (would be more but it crashes if I execute). They're not going to make any progress while that army is there, but peace is apparently 'Very Demanding'.
It might not even be possible to change this.

[nintendo64isking]

i think the movement of units is too great at the moment, reducing that will slow expansion down and give a little more time for settlement development which i think would be a benefit

[Apani]

I think the high speed of the campaign is more due to fast building and recruitment speed and poor garrisons.

[VictorAYorke]

Less of a fix and more of a random idea but... Would anyone else like to see each faction get its own opening cutscene (as happened in Rome 1, Medieval 2 et al)

[Drazule]

Less of a fix and more of a random idea but... Would anyone else like to see each faction get its own opening cutscene (as happened in Rome 1, Medieval 2 et al)

I feel like this may be a lesser priority compared to some of the less 'fluffy' ideas on the list, but I like it! All that would really have to be done is take scenes from Hyrule Historia missions, and somebody talking over it. Like the Moblin one would shows the giant battles between the Hylians and the Moblins, Gannon + his mother's death, Demise, and then maybe as shot of Demise (the settlement) because you are unlikely to actually fight there as your own faction.

Wizzarobes would be able to use a lot of the late ancient era mission stuff with Hylia and such.

There's going to be a lot of cutscenes, they could be recycled to great effect.

They could either use their leader's 'voice', or just Midna seeing as she's the typical narrator anyway.

I would very much like to see the "we play differently" factions work well.

River Zora - They work as Neph intended. He said that they were meant to be a nuisance and a pain to under-garrisoned settlements, but were to die within a couple turns of their invasion......

Ok thanks, I was worried that I might be a little out of date here.

[Drazule]

-Implementing all the faction:
This game has something like 21 factions in it but six of them don't really exist on the map.

The River Zora are the closest to working because once they exist on the map, they will at the very least take up RAM on your computer, but at best they will actually take a city or two, but that does not mean much when they will have one city amongst all the empires they are at war with. These guys kinda work as a nuisance, and that is fine I guess.

The Stalfos were completely broken and did not work. I get that, but it would be nice to add a little drama to that area as it could lead to war with anyone of like four factions, and change the map. I get that Hyrule starts off with a lot of enemies around them and this might make them worthless, but I want some black on the map!''

The Twili never seem to do anything on the 'mainland'. Now, their very existence on it depends on the Gerudo getting screwed, but they're one of my favorite factions and I never get to do anything with them

I have no idea how the Shieka will work. I think that their stance system is very cool and I hope it stays, but I have no idea if it is even possible for the AI to utilize it properly.

Ikana has already been touched upon in this thread, if they started earlier they could be a legitimate force. So far I've only ever seen them AS Ordon, and that typically just meant they were the equivalent of rebels who liked to siege my cities and block my watch towers.

The Wizzarobes are another group who just didn't work. But they are so cool, and they actually have a different religion and a means to spread it, which would change the game a lot!


*I still have yet to play the latest version of the mod. Any or all of this could be out dated.

[Apani]

Less of a fix and more of a random idea but... Would anyone else like to see each faction get its own opening cutscene (as happened in Rome 1, Medieval 2 et al)

As long as it's something more interesting than a parade with fading effects and dramatic music, it would be great.

[Duke Serkol]

usually end with you crusting them, and them refusing to get a peace treaty even though they have one territory left.

with regards to the peace treaty agreements. The AI fails to know when they are beaten and thus will almost never accept peace. I think that should be reworked to give players more diplomatic options when playing through the game and increase the immersion via believability.

Yes, yes a thousand times yes.

[cowsaresomething]

I would very much like to see the "we play differently" factions work well.

River Zora - They work as Neph intended. He said that they were meant to be a nuisance and a pain to under-garrisoned settlements, but were to die within a couple turns of their invasion.

Ikana - There have been two suggested solutions for them. First, spawn them earlier. Or, second, make the land of Ikana inaccessible until Ikana spawns.

Shiekah - From my understanding, and Neph's intro post of them, the AI Shiekah were to stay in Shadow Stance, unless the Kingdom of Hyrule was really messed up. In Death Stance, they should be able play as a normal faction. I have had two ideas of how to force them (i.e. script them) into Death Stance.
1. Hyrule Prime has been conquered by another faction. Lon Lon Ranch, Hylia Marine, or Kakoriko have been conquered by another faction, and held for 5(?) turns.
2. Princess Zelda V, the last of the royal family, dies.

Twili - I have seen the Twili come through the Mirror in the new version.

Wizzrobes - Either give them Vigjaro to start with, or script them to build churches.

[Jakeford]

Good discussion! Maybe Undyingnephalim will read this and take some time to fix up the campaign after he is done adding new units.

Another idea I have is ramping up the threat level of emergent factions. The Stalfos should spawn with a huge army mid game and their should be a notification about them, much like the Mongols you would have to brace yourself and deal with the invasion.

The River Zora should start with armies bigger then 3 units, so that they can actually take places and start their own spread out empire.

Right now if you play as the Kingdom of Hyrule then you get a Wizzrobe message asking you to give them Vigjaro, while I see no reason to do so it at least is something. Their should be an event where the Wizzrobe get Vigjaro if the Kingdom of Hyrule is AI.

Ikana should either start at the beginning or when they do start they should get big armies.


My next idea is to certain factions with more territories and make certain ones more powerful. The Lizalfos for example should get more then 2 places so that they do a better job against Ordona (which really shouldn't a super power lorewise) The Kingdom of Hyrule should not be destroyed in 15 turns, they should be the strongest faction on the board. and perhaps they could get the 2 rebel territories east and west of them at the beginning (Nalkoriko is one of them).

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Now for the record, killing the kingdom of Hyrule in 15 turns is something I would not be able to pull off if the AI wasn't... stupid. Kokiri rely on numerical advantage, as they are individually quite weak. However, I still win fights in which I am outnumbered 2 to 1. The trebuchet focus of the AI, instead of recruiting stuff like Castle Guards, makes them very easy to counter. This is not a problem with the Kingdom of Hyrule itself, but rather with the value the AI places on siege units while leaving their army dangerously vulnerable to cavalry. When I play as the Kingdom of Hyrule, I conquer the world faster than I do with any other faction due to their strong starting position.

[Drazule]

Another thing I'd like to see changed is the defensive emplacement units. Gunner Posts and Barricades are ridiculously powerful, and can only be killed by artilliary or really long ranged units if you want to avoid a blood bath. I get that's their point, but they just annihilate anything that comes close. And the worst thing, you could destroy an entire army with minimal losses, but you still have to get rid of the posts, which is especially a problem when you're defending and have no logical reason to leave your walls. Not to mention that the AI seems to never attack me and my emplacements, so it's just a sitting game until I eventually have to risk bating them towards me.

Also, last I checked, they are simply broken in auto resolve, making victory over a force with just one barricade impossible, or with extraordinary casualties when the balance of forces is like 7:2 in your favor.

Good discussion! Maybe Undyingnephalim will read this and take some time to fix up the campaign after he is done adding new units.

Right now if you play as the Kingdom of Hyrule then you get a Wizzrobe message asking you to give them Vigjaro, while I see no reason to do so it at least is something. Their should be an event where the Wizzrobe get Vigjaro if the Kingdom of Hyrule is AI.

Maybe They would ask for Vigjaro in exchange for vassalage or alliance?

[Jakeford]

Another thing I'd like to see changed is the defensive emplacement units. Gunner Posts and Barricades are ridiculously powerful, and can only be killed by artilliary or really long ranged units if you want to avoid a blood bath. I get that's their point, but they just annihilate anything that comes close. And the worst thing, you could destroy an entire army with minimal losses, but you still have to get rid of the posts, which is especially a problem when you're defending and have no logical reason to leave your walls. Not to mention that the AI seems to never attack me and my emplacements, so it's just a sitting game until I eventually have to risk bating them towards me.

Also, last I checked, they are simply broken in auto resolve, making victory over a force with just one barricade impossible, or with extraordinary casualties when the balance of forces is like 7:2 in your favor.

That is exactly why I took away the siegework's ability to train them in my submod. Fully agree with everything you just said.

[Apani]

I suggest slowing down the replenisment rate.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Actually, the Kokiri barricades have been fixed. I've seen River Zora infantry kill them almost instantly if they close in. Don't know about the gunner posts. Mage Spires, however, are ridiculously difficult to kill even if you manage to make it to them.

[tf_]

Mage Spires, however, are ridiculously difficult to kill even if you manage to make it to them.

Perception Wards are the same. Very easy to kill with ranged units though. Beam Golems might be as well, because I've had my units in a circle around them and unable to attack before.